DT... already a prog legend?

Go to google and click the videos link- you will find Live at the Budokan among the top positions in the hot videos. So it is not only us proggers listening to them at this stage in their career. Perhaps this also follows the path of the 'legends' as they get older- producing more user friendly music.

KingCrimson250 wrote: jampa17 wrote: Damn...!!! I was away by an hour and I loose pretty much of the discussion... great to see this much of support to DT... It was about time... I felted very lonely with many bashers around this site... Whoa whoa whoa, let's not get too hasty here. Just because we support DT's status as a legend doesn't mean we support DT Anyway, I actually think that Ivan has a point. DT isn't really, I suppose you could say transcendental. It's not that being prog metal makes them less prog, but it's more that their music hasn't really reached the point where it's a universal staple of the genre. As stated earlier, the top two Prog Metal albums are DT by a landslide, but when you look at the top albums of all time, they can't even crack the top 20 - the highest is Images and Words at #35. Compare this to how significantly lesser known bands such as PFM and Harmonium occupy spots 9 and 11, respectively. Now there's definitely an argument to be made in defense of DT here, that because of their popularity they're inevitably going to receive all sorts of negative reviews as well. But it still seems to indicate that Dream Theater aren't tremendously notable outside of their immediate sphere of influence, musically speaking. Just because a political candidate has captured one or two demographics doesn't mean he's representative of the whole nation, and I feel like that's what's going on here. That being said, I still think they're deserving of the legendary status, but more because of the gargantuan impact they had on reviving prog in the mainstream, rather than the music itself.

I'm amazed that there still are people so conservative and regressive in their musical tastes that they don't ackowledge progressive metal as a part of the prog rock universe.

That pretty much sums up my impressions of most of the debate in this thread.

jampa17 wrote: KingCrimson250 wrote: jampa17 wrote: Damn...!!! I was away by an hour and I loose pretty much of the discussion... great to see this much of support to DT... It was about time... I felted very lonely with many bashers around this site... Whoa whoa whoa, let's not get too hasty here. Just because we support DT's status as a legend doesn't mean we support DT Anyway, I actually think that Ivan has a point. DT isn't really, I suppose you could say transcendental. It's not that being prog metal makes them less prog, but it's more that their music hasn't really reached the point where it's a universal staple of the genre. As stated earlier, the top two Prog Metal albums are DT by a landslide, but when you look at the top albums of all time, they can't even crack the top 20 - the highest is Images and Words at #35. Compare this to how significantly lesser known bands such as PFM and Harmonium occupy spots 9 and 11, respectively. Now there's definitely an argument to be made in defense of DT here, that because of their popularity they're inevitably going to receive all sorts of negative reviews as well. But it still seems to indicate that Dream Theater aren't tremendously notable outside of their immediate sphere of influence, musically speaking. Just because a political candidate has captured one or two demographics doesn't mean he's representative of the whole nation, and I feel like that's what's going on here. That being said, I still think they're deserving of the legendary status, but more because of the gargantuan impact they had on reviving prog in the mainstream, rather than the music itself.   there's nothing about to be hasty... I know many started their post with "Even if I'm not a fan of DT, I think that..." so, I don't care about it, if you support DT or not or whatever... really... my post was focus on the huge reaction that DT makes in this site is evident, "even is they don't like them"... so, they are there and they are analyzed even for people who do not like them... so... they have a collateral impact, possitive or negative depends on each one of us... but the impact of the band inside this site and mainstream is undeniable...   DT is the most important prog band in the last 20 years and counting... that's why I say they are a legend...

jampa17 wrote:  [Again Iván, your'e not making sense... the fact that the album have 600+ reviews is enough to see the album is important... no matter whats the opinion of each one of the reviewers... and please, the fact that a collaborator rate it as a 1 star do not means that his opinion is more important than any other regular reviewer... and still if collaborator rate it low, well they are in the top50... which in the end do not prove nothing... I know that if the strong fanbase get to hear about this site and came here, of course they would overrun this site... easily... you know their fanbase is huge and strong...

1. The album doesn't has 600+ reviews
2. It has 429 ratings without reviews, mostly by people who came here once and vanishred after leaving their 5 dstars rating.
3. In other words, has only 228 reviews

And yes, I believe that a review has much more value than a rating without review, and a Collaborator thinks many times before placing a 1 star 

Windhawk wrote: Without reading more than the opening pages of this debate: The term legends is one I'd first and foremost use on dinosaurs. Artists with little or no impact as contemporary musicians, basking in the glory of what they did a generation ago or more. Which fits Genesis, Pink Floyd and the rest of them to a T. Dream Theater are still a vital act, still a band with something to say as contemporary musicians. And they've been doing so for a whole lot longer than the legends and dinosaurs of yesteryear. Describing them as legends is a bit faulty due to that. They are masters of their craft though, and as far as being influential goes they have had an impact on par with all the legends of old.

Okay, I have to say a few things about prog, metal, DT, a legend status, and some misconceptions.

Prog rock - as we know it - exists for 40 years. Almost 41 years, to be precise.

Ah, good old times, the prog rock heyday with legends such are Pink Floyd, Genesis, ELP, King Crimson and the like.

Certainly, new prog sub-genres - and many will even doubt their 'progressive' status - are too new, or too derived, or too anything to be on the level of old prog, let alone that some acts from such genres might deserve a 'legendary' status.

Now wait. Is is true?

Let's take a look at those modern stuff.

Heavy metal - or simply, metal - exists in various forms from the early 80's (perhaps even earlier).
 
Metal is constantly evolving, and there's plethora of sub-genres forming every year. But to the core --> (classic) heavy metal, death metal and thrash metal were all established by 1983.

For God's sake, that was 27 years ago!!!

As of today, metal's life span is 2/3rds of prog rock's life span! And growing.

Metal wasn't born yesterday, it's not a new thing.

One might say I'm talking about metal in general, not prog metal.

But wait.
a) Of all non-prog rock genres (any thing that resembles 'rock' and 'pop'), which genre, while being non-prog, is closest to prog?

It's metal. (psychedelic pop, AOR and a few others are good candidates too ,though)

Metal came for the same roots as prog rock (experiments with electric amplification), explored similar lyrical contents as prog rock (SF, fantasy, lunacy etc), is equally prone to lengthy epicness (Maiden, Halloween, Manowar), is equally praising musical virtuosity (countless examples).

b) Dream Theater released their debut in 1989 (22 years ago). By the time, progressive metal was already there to stay (Fates Warning). DT were formed in 1985 (quarter a century ago).

A new genre? Yeah right.

____________________________________________________________________________

Let's see other bases on which Old Prog Fan might ridicule and trivialize prog metal, metal in general, and inevitably, the staple of the genre, Dream Theater.

i. Not prog.



The mixture of prog and the proggiest non-prog.  See what I stated in a). How could it be not progressive??

Every element applied to prog rock (all of it's genres) could be applied to prog metal as well.

Dream Theater? They did some non-prog stuff, they have very extensive discography, but basically they're prog to the bone. Do we really need to mention complex time signatures, chord changes, multi-part and unconvential structures, concepts all over again?

One may dislike it, it might sound too 'modern', too 'hollow', technical, too anything that's not to your taste. But there's no denying they're prog band.

Attacking from the analytical point, not everything that utilizes complext time signatures and Mellotrons is necessarily prog. That's true. But in expanding of that argument, we might reach the conclusion prog doesn't exist.


ii. Lacking of open-mindednes and 'anything goes' attitude

If you reach very high, progressive and eclectic level in metal it will cease to be metal because you'll start messing with basic metal ingridients (guitar riffs etc).

Perhaps. But same can be said about jazz-rock (or any genre for that matter). It needs jazzy component to be jazz rock. Besides, it could go in thousand directions - funky, spacey, metal. The same goes in prog metal - there's a lot of place for experimentation - but if you don't like metal chugging riffs, it's a mater of taste. Progressive electronic is a great genre, but if you dislike synthesizers, it's not for you. Besides, there are prog metal acts based on keyboards rather than guitars (Scott Mosher, deathOrgan).

iii. Cocky Dracula-esque visions, skulls, devils, etc. Overall childish attitude

iii. a)
True to a degree. You either like it, or you don't. Or you have mixed feelings about that, or perhaps you were into it, but you overgrown it?

Every musical styles is somewhat associated with a certain visual art, lyrical explorations and counter-culture.

Punk  is filled with angst, anarchism, ultra-political attitude (left or right). Symphonic space rock will wallow in some absolutely tacky fantasy lyrics and meaningless Roger Dean covers. Hip hop will not be about Scandinavian gods in Asgard, nor will southern rock be about Bling Bling and Bronx.

I'm not a biggest metal fan myself - but I admit I go crazy when some of my friends easily, with blase pseudo-intellectual attitude, dismiss all metal as Bela Lugosi-designed, leather jacket dressed stuff with a bad hairdo.

And it's not all prog metal like that - Kayo Dot have a flower on their album cover, for God's sake.

Lyrics? Horror, fantasy, gore, science-fiction, epicness?

Perhaps in the 80's. By the time when metal genres fusioned with other stuff - including punk - to produce hardcore/noise/math rock/grunge/modern metal, lyrics changed. Rime Of The Ancient Mariner? Keeper Of The Seven Keys Pt. II? When Biohazard and Sick Of It All came on the scene, lyrics were more about real things that might scare you: politics, environmental problems, police force abuse, manic depressiona and social problems, etc. The fantasy epicness eventually came back, and now we have both.


iii. b)
Childish attitude. Even if it is true - do not forget it's the youth who is constantly pushing the boundaries and breaking the old rules,and establishing the new ones. Had we forgot what was rock 'n' roll about???


__________________________________________________________________________________

In general, prog metal deserves it's full recognition, in case you doubt it.
Dream Theater are the staple/the founders/the godfathers of the genre, so that says something. They're not new band, but they're still active, and that might be an argument why they're not legends yet, as Olav remarked. But then again King Crimson is still active - and DT is old as KC was in 1994(!!!). So yes, in my opinion, they are legends now.

And they will be remembered in 20 years as legends...of prog rock and prog metal. Just as Sigur Ros and Porcupine Tree. Many artists will fall into obscurity...in a same way many artists from the 70's are obscure today. Some will be in between  - most likely Kayo Dot will be on a level of Hatfiled and The north for a prog conosseur. (unless something radically changes since they're still active).

==================================================================================






Edited by clarke2001 - February 17 2010 at 12:12

Maybe the founders of prog rock are now consider livings legends because they do create a then new subgenre of rock.

jampa17 wrote: The T wrote: Ivan, when you said (paraphrasing, I can't go back to find your text and quote) "Symphony X and Pain of Salvation are prog-metal, but I'm not 100% sure about DT" I realized this discussion is worthless. The former wouldn't have even existed (probably) without the latter... And, besides, you reveal that your knowledge of metal is quite poor (which is understandable if you don't like it... I don't know jack sh*t about RIO for example)... There's no point in talking to you about this. You, the King of All Logic in PA, fail to see how ridiculous is to say prog-metal bands are prog-metal but DT may be not...  On topic, I think we should wait 20 more years and see if DT are legends or not. Many of you (including I, everything is possible) might be dead by then, but at least a few will be alive and finally be able to see if this "Is DT a prog legend" idea was true... And they'll be in peace and feel completely fulfilled as persons, as, whatever the outcome is, they will have demonstrated that they knew more than a group of unknown people in a music forum on the web!!!! Como se dice en mi idioma, que gran pajazo.    I didn't knew you were a latin american or maybe a spanish... de dónde sos Theo? y creo que Iván te comprende igual que yo... jajaja...!!

T is from Transylvania, he has quite a large estate there.

harmonium.ro wrote: jampa17 wrote: The T wrote: Ivan, when you said (paraphrasing, I can't go back to find your text and quote) "Symphony X and Pain of Salvation are prog-metal, but I'm not 100% sure about DT" I realized this discussion is worthless. The former wouldn't have even existed (probably) without the latter... And, besides, you reveal that your knowledge of metal is quite poor (which is understandable if you don't like it... I don't know jack sh*t about RIO for example)... There's no point in talking to you about this. You, the King of All Logic in PA, fail to see how ridiculous is to say prog-metal bands are prog-metal but DT may be not...  On topic, I think we should wait 20 more years and see if DT are legends or not. Many of you (including I, everything is possible) might be dead by then, but at least a few will be alive and finally be able to see if this "Is DT a prog legend" idea was true... And they'll be in peace and feel completely fulfilled as persons, as, whatever the outcome is, they will have demonstrated that they knew more than a group of unknown people in a music forum on the web!!!! Como se dice en mi idioma, que gran pajazo.    I didn't knew you were a latin american or maybe a spanish... de dónde sos Theo? y creo que Iván te comprende igual que yo... jajaja...!! T is from Transylvania, he has quite a large estate there.