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TheGazzardian 
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Joined: August 11 2009
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 Posted: February 11 2010 at 14:49 |
I think it's interesting how many posts in here start with "I don't like them, but to argue that they are not legendary...". I wonder how that will effect their actual legendary status? In thirty years, will people on progarchives be talking about the glory days of Dream Theater? Will reviews on progarchives often say "Like Dream Theater with a mix of..." the way that reviews nowadays often compare with Genesis, Yes, Tull, Floyd, etc?
For sure, they have their fans, but they have many non-fans too. When I think of bands like Genesis, Yes, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, etc., they were genre defining, but they are also looked upon by lovers of the genre with reverence. I feel that, while Dream Theater does get a lot of reverence, they also get a lot of indifference or distate, surely more so than the '70s classic bands.
The genre of prog is hugely vast, and I think that DT has a lot of fans that aren't fans of the genre, which makes them seem bigger than perhaps they would otherwise. So for prog in general - I'd say that they are less legends than the bands we commonly perceive as legends. Legends of prog metal, but perhaps not prog in general. |
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Raff
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Posted: February 11 2010 at 14:55 |
 TheGazzardian wrote:
I think it's interesting how many posts in here start with "I don't like them, but to argue that they are not legendary...". I wonder how that will effect their actual legendary status? In thirty years, will people on progarchives be talking about the glory days of Dream Theater? Will reviews on progarchives often say "Like Dream Theater with a mix of..." the way that reviews nowadays often compare with Genesis, Yes, Tull, Floyd, etc?
For sure, they have their fans, but they have many non-fans too. When I think of bands like Genesis, Yes, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, etc., they were genre defining, but they are also looked upon by lovers of the genre with reverence. I feel that, while Dream Theater does get a lot of reverence, they also get a lot of indifference or distate, surely more so than the '70s classic bands.
The genre of prog is hugely vast, and I think that DT has a lot of fans that aren't fans of the genre, which makes them seem bigger than perhaps they would otherwise. So for prog in general - I'd say that they are less legends than the bands we commonly perceive as legends. Legends of prog metal, but perhaps not prog in general. |
Very good insights here  . However, I believe a lot depends on how prog will develop in the coming years. If, as this site and others seem to show, prog-metal will turn into the dominant subgenre, then DT will inevitably become the yardstick on which new bands are judged. Nowadays, their influence is huge, but - as you pointed out in the last paragraphs - limited to bands and artists that can be labeled as 'traditional' prog-metal.
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stonebeard
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Posted: February 11 2010 at 15:57 |
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Listeners on Last.fm:
Yes - 515,869
King Crimson - 264,697
Genesis - 661,229
Rush - 529,675
...Dream Theater - 589,354
Now obviously last.fm is skewed for younger music fans, just as Internet usage is skewed more heavily toward younger people. But compare that to other famous current-day prog acts:
Marillion - 278,386
Pain of Salvation - 189,747
Who here doesn't consider Marillion a legend? Or at least vastly influential, important to prog, etc.?
This isn't scientific or anything, just a curiosity. There's not doubt that Dream Theater is at least as influential as Marillion, perhaps even more so than the big prog acts of the 70s. What more do you want out of a legend?
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Catcher10
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Posted: February 11 2010 at 16:37 |
Raff wrote:
Please, could we avoid a sort of 'generational conflict' situation? I have been on PA for almost 5 years, and I can assure you there are a lot of 'older' people who like metal, and 'younger' people who don't (Ricochet is one of them). I used to be a big metal fan in the Eighties, and still like a lot of the 'classic' bands of the era, though 'traditional' prog-metal doesn't really float my boat (I'm much more interested in the other two varieties). So, please, let's try to debunk the myth of the old farts who can't stand anything heavier than Deep Purple ...
Personally, I don't like DT (though I own some eight CDs by them, and have also seen them live), but I can see their importance for the development of modern prog-metal. What I really can't stand is the myriad of clones who are flooding the market - I'm listening to one of them now for reviewing purposes, and it's anything but a pleasurable experience. Give me some Judas Priest or Iron Maiden any day!
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Good reply...I too am not young, young at heart and music...but just because I was born in 1964 does not mean I only listen to Genesis, Floyd, KC or Tull. Where is it stated that I cannot enjoy prog metal? I too was a huge metal head in the 80's (Scorpions, Maiden, Judas Priest......) But Rush takes the trophy for me..ALWAYS...
I don't subscribe to only the young listen to DT...if it were not for us "geezers" DT would not have made it past the 90's because we would not have bought their albums and you 20 somethings were not old enough to understand the music back then.
To the topic...if I think about the word "legend" I would have to say no...They are not a prog legend. Legend refers to a story that may have been handed down from the past or possibly of myth or a "legendary tale".
Obviously DT is for real.......don't get me wrong as I understand what the OP is asking/meaning in the question. If I think about that, I don't put DT in the same category as Led Zeppelin, The Who, The Beatles, Eric Clapton.......who in my mind changed the face of music and are "legendary performers"  .
So I have to wait to give DT such an enormous title..I think they are amazing at what they do....but not "legendary"......
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Catcher10
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Posted: February 11 2010 at 16:51 |
stonebeard wrote:
Listeners on Last.fm:
Yes - 515,869
King Crimson - 264,697
Genesis - 661,229
Rush - 529,675
...Dream Theater - 589,354
Now obviously last.fm is skewed for younger music fans, just as Internet usage is skewed more heavily toward younger people. But compare that to other famous current-day prog acts:
Marillion - 278,386
Pain of Salvation - 189,747
Who here doesn't consider Marillion a legend? Or at least vastly influential, important to prog, etc.?
This isn't scientific or anything, just a curiosity. There's not doubt that Dream Theater is at least as influential as Marillion, perhaps even more so than the big prog acts of the 70s. What more do you want out of a legend?
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From the Zune Marketplace, total plays to date since about Nov 2006.
KC - 455,525
J Tull - 2,432,528
Genesis - 4,004,719
Yes - 2,302,939
Rush - 11,177,252
PF - 26,556,803
DT - 4,900,092
Metallica - 49,765,843
Linkin Park - 83,177,231
This tells me young kids do not listen to older prog, classic rock. And agree this is skewed to the teenybop metal heads as last.fm is.
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Kashmir75
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Joined: June 25 2009
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Posted: February 11 2010 at 18:30 |
darkshade wrote:
DT are not legends. To quote Miles Davis - "A legend is an old man (or band in this case) with a cane known for what he used to do. I'm still doing it."
sure some may say DT are not what they used to be, but their last 10 years have been more successful overall than their first 10 years. SDOIT has many mixed reviews, but true fans will tell you it's one of their best. Octavarium (song) is highly regarded as the band's best song ever. BC&SL has some of the best reviews for a DT album since SFAM or SDOIT. Some think it's one of their best albums, I think so myself. their other albums, though flawed, also contain some of their best material. The band has not stopped evolving and experimenting with their sound since their first album, always staying progressive, complex, and doing what they want to do without compromising their own music for the sake of record companies or whatever.
how many classic prog bands could you say stuff like that about after the 70s? most of those bands were about 10 years old by the time 1980 rolled around.
theyd be legends if they broke up after Awake, or sometime before 1998. no doubt. and for sure if they broke up after SFAM.
but they havent stopped. so they are not legends...
...they are just legendary!
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Well said about the longevity issue. Most of the 70s bands were not at their peak, creatively or popularity-wise, more than 10 years into their career. DT have become bigger in the second half of their career. It's almost unprecedented. Many have argued about the quality of their post- Metropolis part 2 output. I don't agree. I loved SDOIT (especially disc 2, which sounds even more incredible live with the Octavarium Orchestra!); loved the heavier approach of Train of Thought; thought Octavarium (the song and the album) was one of the best pieces of music they've ever written, and thought the most recent two were decent, if not quite classic, albums.
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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Kashmir75
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Joined: June 25 2009
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Posted: February 11 2010 at 18:37 |
TheGazzardian wrote:
I think it's interesting how many posts in here start with "I don't like them, but to argue that they are not legendary...". I wonder how that will effect their actual legendary status? In thirty years, will people on progarchives be talking about the glory days of Dream Theater? Will reviews on progarchives often say "Like Dream Theater with a mix of..." the way that reviews nowadays often compare with Genesis, Yes, Tull, Floyd, etc?
For sure, they have their fans, but they have many non-fans too. When I think of bands like Genesis, Yes, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, etc., they were genre defining, but t hey are also looked upon by lovers of the genre with reverence. I feel that, while Dream Theater does get a lot of reverence, they also get a lot of indifference or distate, surely more so than the '70s classic bands.
The genre of prog is hugely vast, and I think that DT has a lot of fans that aren't fans of the genre, which makes them seem bigger than perhaps they would otherwise. So for prog in general - I'd say that they are less legends than the bands we commonly perceive as legends. Legends of prog metal, but perhaps not prog in general. |
You're right about DT having as many naysayers as they do hardcore fans. But isn't this true of any prog band, really? I know there isn't much argument about the legendary status of Floyd, Genesis, Yes, etc on this site. But outside of prog circles, I assure you, there's a lot of Yes or ELP detractors.
DT are in the awkward position of perhaps being too metal for the progheads, and too prog for the metalheads. You either get it or you don't. Since I enjoy both prog and metal, I appreciate what they do with their music, and consider myself a fan.
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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SergiUriah
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Joined: May 03 2009
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Posted: February 11 2010 at 18:39 |
A prog legend? No, only WILLOW playing a Hammond is...
PROG MASTERS? 
Edited by SergiUriah - February 11 2010 at 21:05
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Padraic
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Posted: February 11 2010 at 19:43 |
King By-Tor wrote:
"already"? They've been around now as long as King Crimson had been around when DT started. 22 years is a long time there, peeps.
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This. It's not like they're a spanking new band. And yes they are prog legends if you consider their brand of music prog. They serve as the "gateway" to introducing many, many people to the wider prog universe, and remain one of the favorites among young and old on this site and in prog fandom in general. That I think they've suffered a massive decline in quality over the past several years doesn't change this fact.
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TheGazzardian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 11 2009
Location: Canada
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Posted: February 11 2010 at 21:54 |
Kashmir75 wrote:
TheGazzardian wrote:
I think it's interesting how many posts in here start with "I don't like them, but to argue that they are not legendary...". I wonder how that will effect their actual legendary status? In thirty years, will people on progarchives be talking about the glory days of Dream Theater? Will reviews on progarchives often say "Like Dream Theater with a mix of..." the way that reviews nowadays often compare with Genesis, Yes, Tull, Floyd, etc?
For sure, they have their fans, but they have many non-fans too. When I think of bands like Genesis, Yes, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, etc., they were genre defining, but t hey are also looked upon by lovers of the genre with reverence. I feel that, while Dream Theater does get a lot of reverence, they also get a lot of indifference or distate, surely more so than the '70s classic bands.
The genre of prog is hugely vast, and I think that DT has a lot of fans that aren't fans of the genre, which makes them seem bigger than perhaps they would otherwise. So for prog in general - I'd say that they are less legends than the bands we commonly perceive as legends. Legends of prog metal, but perhaps not prog in general. |
You're right about DT having as many naysayers as they do hardcore fans. But isn't this true of any prog band, really? I know there isn't much argument about the legendary status of Floyd, Genesis, Yes, etc on this site. But outside of prog circles, I assure you, there's a lot of Yes or ELP detractors.
DT are in the awkward position of perhaps being too metal for the progheads, and too prog for the metalheads. You either get it or you don't. Since I enjoy both prog and metal, I appreciate what they do with their music, and consider myself a fan. |
That's kind of my point though - are they legends of prog? Should the fact that they have large appeal be what matters, or should it be how they are viewed by those who have broad knowledge of the genre? Some combo of both? Neither?
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SergiUriah
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Joined: May 03 2009
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Posted: February 11 2010 at 22:07 |
Raff wrote:
Very good insights here. However, I believe a lot depends on how prog will develop in the coming years. If, as this site and others seem to show, prog-metal will turn into the dominant subgenre, then DT will inevitably become the yardstick on which new bands are judged. Nowadays, their influence is huge, but - as you pointed out in the last paragraphs - limited to bands and artists that can be labeled as 'traditional' prog-metal.
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Nice to meet you over here. Interesant point of view yours about progmetal. I think is the gem of the METAL scene now. Katatonia, Redemption, Simphony X and many others bands drink from the DT rivers...
But nobody can forget that prog-metal is a sprig of that huge prog tree that is CLASSIC PROG ROCK, as progjazz, jam bands with prog bunches, symphonic, krautrock, etc etc...
Prog-metal isnīt for good the future of PROG. Actually prog rock is at hospital as the sounds of the magic 70s hard rock or blues rock. The 80s changed many more things that Nirvana made in 90s.
Excuse me for my humble English- Uriah Heep said.
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Dellinger
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Posted: February 11 2010 at 22:30 |
TheGazzardian wrote:
Kashmir75 wrote:
TheGazzardian wrote:
I think it's interesting how many posts in here start with "I don't like them, but to argue that they are not legendary...". I wonder how that will effect their actual legendary status? In thirty years, will people on progarchives be talking about the glory days of Dream Theater? Will reviews on progarchives often say "Like Dream Theater with a mix of..." the way that reviews nowadays often compare with Genesis, Yes, Tull, Floyd, etc?For sure, they have their fans, but they have many non-fans too. When I think of bands like Genesis, Yes, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, etc., they were genre defining, but t hey are also looked upon by lovers of the genre with reverence. I feel that, while Dream Theater does get a lot of reverence, they also get a lot of indifference or distate, surely more so than the '70s classic bands. The genre of prog is hugely vast, and I think that DT has a lot of fans that aren't fans of the genre, which makes them seem bigger than perhaps they would otherwise. So for prog in general - I'd say that they are less legends than the bands we commonly perceive as legends. Legends of prog metal, but perhaps not prog in general. |
You're right about DT having as many naysayers as they do hardcore fans. But isn't this true of any prog band, really? I know there isn't much argument about the legendary status of Floyd, Genesis, Yes, etc on this site. But outside of prog circles, I assure you, there's a lot of Yes or ELP detractors. DT are in the awkward position of perhaps being too metal for the progheads, and too prog for the metalheads. You either get it or you don't. Since I enjoy both prog and metal, I appreciate what they do with their music, and consider myself a fan. |
That's kind of my point though - are they legends of prog? Should the fact that they have large appeal be what matters, or should it be how they are viewed by those who have broad knowledge of the genre? Some combo of both? Neither? |
The lover / detractors thing reminds me a lot about ELP, which is hailed by many and hated by others, to the point they don't get many good ratings in Prog Archives. About having many fans outside prog, that reminds me of Pink Floyd, which have reached their legendary status I guess more because of their huge non-prog fanbase than from proggers. However, as a matter of fact, I don't think their fanbase is so much Metal-Heads either: on the concert I attended from them, I didn't see almost any All Black clad metalhead, while on concerts from other Metal bands those would be about all the crowd they would gather.
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: February 12 2010 at 12:53 |
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I think itīs fair to call DT legends of prog. Whether you like their music or not, they have been charting for the last decade making them one of the only prog bands in recent times to do so apart for PT and what Transatlantic? I am certainly not their biggest fan, but thinking about how MANY people out there, who got loured into this strange world of insane and beautiful music, - Iīd say the phrase is legit.
Theyīve ignited the spark - much like Marillion did in the early eighties.
Prog legends are also a label you can stick on an artist you donīt care for..
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eddiefang
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Posted: February 15 2010 at 16:46 |
Of course! They have been a legend for some time now, and remember that they have carried the progressive flag long before it was considered one of the current "main influences" for some of the newer bands not necessarily associated with prog! Long live Dream Theater! 
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KingCrimson250
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Posted: February 15 2010 at 17:05 |
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Yeah. I look through this thread, and I see unanimous agreement, and I must confess that there is a part of me that instantly wants to play devil's advocate. Despite this, I can't quite bring myself to do it. I don't really care much for Dream Theater anymore, and I haven't got very much good to say about their music, but their influence is undeniable and they have completely transformed the face of prog.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: February 15 2010 at 19:38 |
If you need to ask this question...I have doubts that the are a legend, but if you still ask it and there's not an almost unanimous yes, they can't be Prog legends.
Nobody will ask if Genesis, Yes, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, PFM, etc are legends, because it's accepted as a tautology, and the road is very hard for DT:
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They are not exclusively Prog, the Metal component (and fanbase) is at least as strong..
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A very high percentage of Progheads, don't even consider them Prog
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They don't have an album that is considered a definitive gem of Progressive Rock.
Bands like Yes and Genesis have lost their best lineup at least 35 years ago, and still are icons, King Crimson has changed more lineups than I changed underwear, and still icons, Genesis doesn't release a Prog album in 32 years (As a afactthe don't exist anymore) and still have a Prog fanbase.
Pink Floyd has lost 2 key members, probably Waters and Gilmour won't ever play again together...But still people talk about tem
That's being a legend
Dream Theater had ups and downs, but mostly get massive attention only when they are about to release an album.
They are great musicians (I don't like their music, but going to see them next March, probably will buy the ticketts 20 minutes before the concert when they are sold at 50% of the cost), but being great musicians is not enough, this guys still have to pass the test of time
20 yers since their first release, is probably too soon for this guys, there are instant legends, DT is not one of them.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 15 2010 at 19:59
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SergiUriah
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Posted: February 15 2010 at 20:35 |
^
Iīm OK with all you have exposed here.
But... are we rating their legendary suposse because of their sales and impact in 20 years with no legends in prog and counting their commercial success overall, OR are we truely rating their global musical impact and composition qualities which are more important??
For me they are a prog masters, no more. Legends, never. |
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Kashmir75
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Posted: February 15 2010 at 21:00 |
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I think the 70s/80s bias of a lot of guys on this site may be hurting DT's chances of being hailed a prog legend. I mean, the classic bands like Floyd, Yes, etc, etc are never debated as being classic or not here. DT are disputed here, let alone outside PA. Even on metal sites, there's as many DT haters as there are diehard fans.
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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KingCrimson250
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Posted: February 15 2010 at 21:08 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
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They are not exclusively Prog, the Metal component (and fanbase) is at least as strong..
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A very high percentage of Progheads, don't even consider them Prog
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They don't have an album that is considered a definitive gem of Progressive Rock.
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1. Fair enough, although that doesn't necessarily keep them from being legends. 2. Support? I could argue that a very high percentage of Progheads do consider them prog. Hell I could state that a very high percentage of Progheads are members of the Russian mafia and spend their spare time doing coke and offing offensive politicians. Doesn't mean anything unless you can back it up. 3. I agree with this (their top rated album, IAW, is ranked significantly lower on the site than albums by other, non-legendary bands such as Anglagard, Camel and Harmonium) but to me the reason why they are legendary has less to do with their actual output and more to do with the impact they've had on the prog scene.
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Kashmir75
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Posted: February 15 2010 at 21:12 |
I consider plenty of their albums gems of Progressive Rock. Clearly no one else agrees with me... 
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
DT... already a prog legend?
