Please Self-Release Me, Let Me Go |
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Raff
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24429 |
Posted: February 15 2010 at 14:35 | ||||||||
I know that in Italy people spend inordinate amounts of money on bottled water, even when (like in Rome) the quality of tap water is excellent. So, no surprises here... Even if we're massively OT!
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Windhawk
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 28 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 11401 |
Posted: February 15 2010 at 14:48 | ||||||||
Any more calls for the sale of bottled water (in recent years) as a luxury phenomenon similar to selling ice to the eskimoes as a controversial opinion?
If not - return to the topic at hand ;-) Edited by Windhawk - February 15 2010 at 14:49 |
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
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jplanet
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: August 30 2006 Location: NJ Status: Offline Points: 799 |
Posted: February 15 2010 at 15:34 | ||||||||
None of this has been O.T. at all! I think we've found a solution after all - let bands sell bottled water!
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Windhawk
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 28 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 11401 |
Posted: February 15 2010 at 15:39 | ||||||||
*chuckles* or let the bottled water vendors sell music ;-)
Hmmm....would advertising -on- bottled water bottles be a concept? Edited by Windhawk - February 15 2010 at 15:41 |
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
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jplanet
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: August 30 2006 Location: NJ Status: Offline Points: 799 |
Posted: February 15 2010 at 16:06 | ||||||||
Now we're getting somewhere! Hmmmm..or perhaps we can partner with bottled water companies and write songs that promote fear and doubt about tap water! Ok, I'll go back to my corner now before Dean cancels his Shadow Circus order. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: February 15 2010 at 16:07 | ||||||||
The consequence of this is simple - if something costs more it must be worth more, if you have to pay more it must be better. People buy bottled water because they think that by paying extra for something they are getting a better product, however the value of that water does not diminish if they can get a two-for-one deal. That's a win-win deal - the same worth for less bucks. The problems start with something like Dasani ...
If you've never heard of the marketting disaster of this Coca Cola branded bottled water in the UK, you have to read this >here<
People buy bottled water, but they are not mugs - they know what things are worth and are willing to pay the price, but if the product is bogus it is actually worth less to them than tap water and they won't buy it.
Edited by Dean - February 15 2010 at 16:10 |
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Windhawk
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 28 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 11401 |
Posted: February 15 2010 at 16:39 | ||||||||
Some nice links to articles about Dasani on the Wiki-article on the product.
Embarrasing marketing by Coca Cola. Lessons hopefully learned by them: 1. Never ever use the word "spunk" while marketing something in the UK (unless it's aimed at ...hrm... special interest groups) 2. Stay honest 3. Check, recheck and have quality control so that you know what you sell, and can stop contaminated products from reaching the public. Edited by Windhawk - February 15 2010 at 16:42 |
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: February 15 2010 at 18:13 | ||||||||
I'm sure there are too, but I think we are wandering away from the topic a little and delving into the realms of pure speculation (interesting though it is). However, "off-site" backup storage isn't that safe, nor is it guaranteed. As we have discussed, the internet is in a state of continual flux and ever evolving, servers and services disappear overnight and electronic media is not future-proof. We can still read 300 year old manuscripts and we can still read the Rosetta Stone and Egyptian hieroglyphs - no one can make that claim for electronic media - if all Prog albums of the 70s were only ever recorded on 8-track cartridge this forum would not exist today, so relying on multi-server backups to save today's music is risky to say the least.
Or do you? If you are giving your music away for free don't you still want to reach as many people as you possibly can? You still have to promote your album - you still have to create a noise. Word-of-mouth is a promotional tool, it is social engineering, just as hyping the album on a public forum is - several levels down the line people will not be able to tell the difference between a genuine buzz and a fabricated one because they will look, taste and smell the same. The only way we can tell the difference at the moment is because the professionals do it better than the amateurs. Even without the lure of cash - the loudest will still be king.
If you take away the money from the direct product then the "industry" will make its money from indirect products, from merchandise and from ticket sales. The album is then reduced to being a mere advertisement - just another promotional item.
It sounds ideal and I would certainly support it, as a socialist I can think of nothing better than removing the entire entertainment industry from the economic environment and seeing all those who derive a living from it getting proper jobs. After all, it's not as if writing music is difficult or even hard work, in fact of all the "arts" I've dabbled in it's by far the easiest thing I've ever done, though being any good at it is another issue...
and that's the crunch... we are willing to pay for what we think is good, we are happy to buy a piece of music that has value to us personally and is by an artist we admire, that's why music sells and that's why the industry exists.
However, I do not believe that is possible to rid music of business, nor do I believe it is the true desire of all artists. I think many artists like their lifestyles, they like their fame and they crave the recognition and adulation that goes with it, and there are many more aspiring artist behind them who want that. The industry will exist to feed those egos and to feed off of them, they will profit from the changing landscape that the digital age creates by one means or another. If they cannot control access to the material then they will control some other aspect and profit from that instead.
Sony entered into the "software" end of the music industry by buying CBS, ATV, BMG, UA etc. because they lost the VHS/BetaMax "hardware" war and had no intention of losing the CD, DVD and Blu-ray wars - Apple could not do this due to a legal restriction imposed on them by Apple Corps so they created iTunes to ensure that the iPod had a ready supply of "software" - if the Entertainment Industry wants to control the distribution and access of their products via the Internet then they will find a way - if I was a Multinational Corporation I would not target piffling little dot-coms and ISPs, or go for anything that could be bypassed or overcome by smart programmers (such as DRM) or employ any legal restrictions that required an army of lawyers to manage - I would go for the underlying infrastructure that the whole Internet is reliant upon - the Internet backbone and the Tier 1/Tier 2 networks, and I would not need to buy into all of it - just key areas - because regardless of the format the internet takes in the future it will still have to go through the backbone.
What we could end up with is a two tier system - the professional and the amateur - and the demarcation between them will be far wider than anything we have ever seen in the past - no more semi-pros, no more pro-am - getting an unsigned band on even one gig of a pro tour was extremely difficult in the past, in the future it will be completely impossible - the pro circuit will be a closed shop. The division between signed and unsigned will be so wide it will be difficult to see them as being the same art-form. This could be "a good thing", I'm not convinced, but it could be. Edited by Dean - February 15 2010 at 18:48 |
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stefolof
Forum Groupie Joined: November 30 2009 Location: Kl Status: Offline Points: 59 |
Posted: February 16 2010 at 04:19 | ||||||||
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 04:56 |
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stefolof
Forum Groupie Joined: November 30 2009 Location: Kl Status: Offline Points: 59 |
Posted: February 16 2010 at 06:39 | ||||||||
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 04:56 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: February 16 2010 at 13:38 | ||||||||
The storage of anything is only as good as our ability to retrieve it, not the ease in which we can store it or how readily the data can be replicated. Any database (which is all any storage system is) is only as good as its indexing system - it does not matter how smart the query language, if the index is corrupt or lost so is the data. If something is valuable then the safeguards will be in-place to ensure the security of the data and all links to it - but for everyday data, like the millions of mp3 files that exist throughout the internet and over millions of PCs those security measures are not in place. If the next big thing is a highly compressed lossless format (let's call it μFLAC™ so I can get rich on the royalties) then those mp3s will fall into redundancy in a very short space of time ... people will just delete them and/or the links that point to them, with no guarantee that all the deleted data would have been converted to the emergent format first.
Isn't that the same as just noodling at home and keeping your music to yourself?
That's not working too well at the moment - automation replaces the wrong strata of "workers" from the economic system. In the current system the people in the manufacturing industries support those in the service industries who in turn support those in the academic/research industries and they all support those in the entertainment industries. Ironically, automation not only removed a skilled and semi-skilled layer from the employment pool, it also wiped-out an entire layer of middle-managers and support staff who possessed few practical or useful skills. The current (western) economic model has shown that removing the manufacturing industries does not create more jobs in the service industries, so the problem is delayed by moving the overspill into academia - more people are going into further education and they are staying there longer - but there is nothing for them to do when they leave but go into the already overloaded service sector, or become educators for the next generation of academics. The entertainment industry is only sustainable when all the other levels are producing a surplus of wealth, even though it does create wealth of its own in the form of "product" it is not an essential "product".
What we haven't experienced (yet) is a drastic reduction in working hours that would facilitate the Utopia you desire. The average working week in Europe is still longer than it was in the 14th Century (and that wasn't exactly a hot-bed of creative output... well, except Dante and Chaucer).
I disagree (slightly) - the one thing that motivates children is the approval of their parents - they want praise for doing something right - that reward-system is what drives us to learn stuff, develop skills and to be good at them. We carry this on into adult life, we all want the respect and approval of our peers for doing something right - fame and fortune is the natural extension (and logical conclusion) of that "reward" system. The modern (distorted) values imposed by society have created the situation where people expect reward/respect/approval for doing anything, whether it is done right or not. Which neatly brings us back to the topic of this thread.
Being a cynic, I'd hazard a guess that neither side will win and the result will be an unsatisfactory and unwieldy compromise.
Edited by Dean - February 16 2010 at 13:42 |
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stefolof
Forum Groupie Joined: November 30 2009 Location: Kl Status: Offline Points: 59 |
Posted: February 17 2010 at 05:56 | ||||||||
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 04:56 |
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halabalushindigus
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 05 2009 Location: San Diego Status: Offline Points: 1438 |
Posted: February 17 2010 at 14:00 | ||||||||
The Stefolof Man and The Deanmeister going at it big time don't let me interrupt you
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assume the power 1586/14.3 |
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
Posted: February 22 2010 at 12:40 | ||||||||
Speaking of storage: http://faith-theology.blogspot.com/2010/02/twelve-theses-on-libraries-and.html
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: February 22 2010 at 12:59 | ||||||||
"I am proud of what I am, I... am a librarian"
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 19 2010 at 07:22 | ||||||||
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: March 19 2010 at 22:17 | ||||||||
Sorry if this is old, but I had to bump it because what you are saying is not true in the slightest. People have been making a lot of noise about that possibility in America if Net Neutrality dies, and I don't know what the current status of net neutrality is, but nobody's even come close to trying to do that yet, because people would throw a fit if you could go to Google but not the smaller sites Google linked you to.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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jplanet
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: August 30 2006 Location: NJ Status: Offline Points: 799 |
Posted: March 19 2010 at 23:42 | ||||||||
Oh, holy sh*t! I am SO sorry! We were waiting to meet the bass player to get it signed for you, but unfortunately, there is some bad news, and Jason has been having some terrible medical issues - I'll be happy to ship the CD to you right away sans signatures, of course... Very sorry about that, when I saw your post it hit my like a brick that you've been waiting so long! |
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
Posted: March 20 2010 at 13:00 | ||||||||
You mean you want me to read that? OK, that essay/rant on Japan you linked to a couple of weeks ago was excellent, but this doesn't look too entertaining |
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tamijo
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 06 2009 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 4287 |
Posted: March 30 2010 at 08:03 | ||||||||
First of all i will admit that i havent read trough all 9 pages, so this may allready have been noted.
What i want to say is :
I dont belive many bands can survive without going live. And i think the ability to do great live shows have allways been a key-stone in rock. So the critics will still be able to pick out the great live stuff.
This just to comfort those that think it will all drown in a flood of selfmade amaturism.
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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