Please Self-Release Me, Let Me Go

Rubbish. I know from my own experience in rap that persistence counts more than talent. Trash rappers who won't take no for an answer end up signed a lot more than interesting ones who are laid-back about it.

Textbook wrote: Rubbish. I know from my own experience in rap that persistence counts more than talent. Trash rappers who won't take no for an answer end up signed a lot more than interesting ones who are laid-back about it.

Well, from my own experience good demos always got me better gigs than bad demos. Otherwise, why even bother making a good demo since making a bad one is so much easier.

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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 07:02

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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 07:01

stefolof wrote: Atavachron wrote:   I don't see it--  the assumption that people don't really like what in fact they do is a bit bizarre:  pop music is what it is because it most suits popular tastes, like it or not.  I occasionally enjoy fine dining but I much prefer a real, good old fashioned meal.  Does that mean I have an unsophisticated palate?   No, I've been cooking my whole life, had unbelievably great meals that cost $100 per person and grilled cheese sandwiches that were far better. People consume what they enjoy most until they no longer enjoy it. Is it bizarre really? You're assuming that people choose freely between options. I don't believe that's the case. Let's say you've been growing up to listening to MOR all your life. What are the chances you plunge into progressive rock all of a sudden? Further, imagine traditional Indian, African or Asian traditional music. They're considered popular in their respective locations but how much do they have in common with each other and with Western traditional music? You would expect if there was common notion of "popular" there would be similarities.

Do you genuinely believe that if avant-garde rock was played on the radio - let's say for, what, a year - that magically the music-listening world would somehow 'see the light'?  That in a fit of wisdom and sophistication  they'd throw out their Sting, Alanis Morissette, Pink, Van Halen, and Stevie Nicks, converted to some new Bohemianism that rejects all that has - or had - wide appeal?

I doubt it.  And besides, who is anyone to say they're wrong.  It takes a certain talent to songsmith, something most prog musicians wouldn't know if it bit them on their pale, bony asses.




Edited by Atavachron - February 03 2010 at 02:13

Textbook wrote: Rubbish. I know from my own experience in rap that persistence counts more than talent. Trash rappers who won't take no for an answer end up signed a lot more than interesting ones who are laid-back about it.

Are you putting this forward as a good system worth emulating in Prog Rock circles?

Atavachron wrote: stefolof wrote: Epignosis wrote:   I've got to disagree. People are morons.  They flock to lots of things that are terrible.  The music industry kind of depends on this. I'd say people (the masses) eat what they're being fed and flock around what they have been conditioned to flock around. Imagine if all radio and TV stations would play only avant garde music. You can be sure people would start buying avant garde records. I don't see it--  the assumption that people don't really like what in fact they do is a bit bizarre:  pop music is what it is because it most suits popular tastes, like it or not.  I occasionally enjoy fine dining but I much prefer a real, good old fashioned meal.  Does that mean I have an unsophisticated palate?   No, I've been cooking my whole life, had unbelievably great meals that cost $100 per person and grilled cheese sandwiches that were far better. People consume what they enjoy most until they no longer enjoy it.

I think it is more accurate to say that people like what their friends like, that to some extent personal taste can be overwritten by the need to fit in with the group.

stefolof wrote: Atavachron wrote:   Do you genuinely believe that if avant-garde rock was played on the radio - let's say for, what, a year - that magically the music-listening world would somehow 'see the light'?  That in a fit of wisdom and sophistication  they'd throw out their Sting, Alanis Morissette, Pink, Van Halen, and Stevie Nicks, converted to some new Bohemianism that rejects all that has - or had - wide appeal? I doubt it.  And besides, who is anyone to say they're wrong.  It takes a certain talent to songsmith, something most prog musicians wouldn't know if it bit them on their pale, bony asses. No, that would be quite ridiculous of course.   But my guess is that it would take less than a few decades to "turn things around". Many kids nowadays don't know what a vinyl record is. Why? Because no one has told them. If you grow up (passively) listening to avant garde and avant garde only, that will be your point reference. Just like you learn to speak English if you grow up in America and Chinese if you grow up in China.

I've never believed in this line of reasoning re the fledgling listener. You might get say, 1 in a 100 kids who respond positively to hearing nothing but avant-garde music but you're left with 99 little pups who never want to hear any music ever again if it all sounds like daddy strangling a balloon animal . The core elements (in the west) that make certain musical effects satisfying to the untrained ear, are not arbitrary i.e. they are all contained and reinforced heavily in mainstream pop music:

A steady pulse
Short melodic phrases that are easy to remember (erm...catchiness ?)
Repetition
simple harmonies that resolve quickly to the tonic
The damn stuff is usually heavily compressed so that even the quieter dynamics are loud etc

I'm not qualified to say if any of the above phenomena are culturally or socially defined but such 'hooks' have been around far longer than any particular musical genre and despite the best efforts of progressive musicians since Robert Fripp was in short pants, will surely outlast them all.

I think that artists, any artist, should be able to promote their music through theses channels. To believe that you are good, to want acceptance is good,. It makes the artist believe that their dream is real. I am an artist, but I fear rejection and therefore I don't subject myself to that rejection. Take Epignosis for example, his music is him. If I don't give it a five-star rating on the music, I sure would give it high marks because he produced the whole thing and I know He has taken some ribbing for it, but it IS beautiful to hear. That progarchives can do this for any artist is, for the first time, righteous.  People have their humanlike tendencies> They'll do whatever they think they can get away with and, yeah its all avain, to the extent that we ENJOY our recreations and we want to be told we are good. The members of Progarchives are all extremely gifted and this is a GOOD website.  Thanks Max,etc The Library of Progressive Archives reminds us, or should anyone, that great great talents are out there, not "In Here'.

Easy Money wrote: Textbook wrote: Rubbish. I know from my own experience in rap that persistence counts more than talent. Trash rappers who won't take no for an answer end up signed a lot more than interesting ones who are laid-back about it. Well, from my own experience good demos always got me better gigs than bad demos. Otherwise, why even bother making a good demo since making a bad one is so much easier.