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Topic ClosedRap Music's Place In Prog

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2009 at 03:19
For those who want musicality (though they're not at all proggish) check out the superlative Roots, who eschew computers in favour of live instrumentation. Their drummer Questlove is a particular standout and they're about the only long standing rap act to never drop a suspect album- nine LPs in and no coasters and another one due later this year.
 
There are also plenty of artists who have in my opinion brought musicality to computer/turntable generated music- witness The Bomb Squad (most noted for their work with Public Enemy) who partly generated the raw, volatile sound they had by mixing/generating the track live rather than recording it in pieces and editing it together later. Also witness the previously mentioned El-P who is generally brilliant as producer, though the album he produced for Cannibal Ox, The Cold Vein, is his stand-out work. He goes so far beyond what the accepted limits of what you can do with a beat, a few synths and a sample it's not funny.
 
And we've been totally forgetting instrumental hip-hop artists. Instrumental DJ albums tend to be a bit proggish in a way because without an MC to worry about tripping up, a real sound-head DJ can go bananas and do whatever they want. RJD2, Cut Chemist, Peanut Butter Wolf, Prefuse 73, Nosaj Thing, DJ Shadow, Madlib there's dozens of these guys who make surprising and diverse hip-hop instrumental discs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2010 at 23:08
So I discovered this forum because i get google alerts for 'Id Obelus'... I was flattered that Logan posted up an example of my music as a potential 'prog rap' candidate...  I've been infatuated with rap music since the mid 80's... and since the age of 12 i've been "rapping".
 
Even though i'm an m.c. and "hip hop head" my musical taste branches out in many directions. I really fancy quite a bit of psychedelic and prog rock. I tend to gravitate towards art that is abstract and often dubbed weird or obscure.
 
with that being said... I'm glad there are some of you that are open to hip hop on this prog rock forum.
 
I'd like to share my infinite wisdom on the subject of "prog hip hop":
 
Here is an instrumental hip hop album from my very good friends, the Dreadnots. Depending on your views on sampling, you'll either love this or hate this. Jeremy (aka Oblio), like myself, is a big fan of 70's prog rock and he has the record collection to prove it. So, you're likely to recognize a lot of samples from obscure prog rock records in his music:
 
Robotic Hands of God - Voice of the Last Days
 
i also would consider 'Themselves' a very progressive "hip hop" group... really genre defying actually:
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 04:35
Have you guys ever listened to Gil Scott-Heron. He was a poet and sort of one of a kind in soul music (he played with a flautist), but he is also known as a pioneer for all the hip-hop movement. Just listen to this song out of his first album released in 1971 : 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix6Kz-1ev-4
 
This is rather unusual, as all other tracks are "sung". He did the same on the following album, with one track "rapped" while all others followed the pattern of soul music.
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 05:08


From Hungary, a mix of Balkan folk instrumentation (cimbalom especially) eastern european gypsy music, rap vocals, rock beats (played by a real drummer - not sampled loops) politicised lyrics (a Noam Chomsky speech sample is used heavily) and not a single reference to hoes, my main maaan, bitchez or gangbangin' anywhere. Features a stunning cover of the Beatles Revolution in a skanking reggae style. One of the best albums I've heard in years. (and I really loathe most of the rap based music I've ever heard)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 05:18
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:



From Hungary, a mix of Balkan folk instrumentation (cimbalom especially) eastern european gypsy music, rap vocals, rock beats (played by a real drummer - not sampled loops) politicised lyrics (a Noam Chomsky speech sample is used heavily) and not a single reference to hoes, my main maaan, bitchez or gangbangin' anywhere. Features a stunning cover of the Beatles Revolution in a skanking reggae style. One of the best albums I've heard in years. (and I really loathe most of the rap based music I've ever heard)
Check out also Haydamaky's 'Bohuslav' if you like the mix of eastern traditional culture and rock music.
 
 
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 06:18
I wondered whether Trip Hop had a place here?  EDIT :  A: No its not RAP idiot.  But I will leave this anyway. Big smile Really just an excuse to post this beautiful track.  Listen if you haven't heard it before!
 
 
Interesting thread cheers


Edited by akamaisondufromage - January 30 2010 at 07:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 06:34
Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:



From Hungary, a mix of Balkan folk instrumentation (cimbalom especially) eastern european gypsy music, rap vocals, rock beats (played by a real drummer - not sampled loops) politicised lyrics (a Noam Chomsky speech sample is used heavily) and not a single reference to hoes, my main maaan, bitchez or gangbangin' anywhere. Features a stunning cover of the Beatles Revolution in a skanking reggae style. One of the best albums I've heard in years. (and I really loathe most of the rap based music I've ever heard)
Check out also Haydamaky's 'Bohuslav' if you like the mix of eastern traditional culture and rock music.
 
 


Will do (liked the clips I found on You Tube certainly) Thanks for the recommendation Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 06:39

Mentioned country - Let's ask yourself a question. Who likes rap/country, older/younger ones ?

There are two major problems with rap music. Monotone music (often) and most importantly - they're rapping.


There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 07:41
There is no prog rap yet - if you think about fusion of 100% full-brown prog and rap.

However, if harpsichord/Mellotron-based song in 11/8 with rap lyrics on the top of it doesn't exist, it will. It's just a matter of time.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 08:17
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but in Bearfish's 2009 release "Destined Solitaire", they have rap vocals in the middle of "In Real Life, There Is No Algebra", and it works quite well. It's only about thirty seconds of the song, but they don't let it be boring.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 08:26
I know many people here won't agree with me, but I believe that Faith No More (one of the first bands to fuse rock and hip-hop) had more than a few progressive traits, especially on their album Angel Dust.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 08:28

Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but in Bearfish's 2009 release "Destined Solitaire", they have rap vocals in the middle of "In Real Life, There Is No Algebra", and it works quite well. It's only about thirty seconds of the song, but they don't let it be boring.

That's true. And yet, it's my favourite song from favourite album. Well fitting to fast pace and crazy weirdness of whole song. Of course, it's not epic part of this song, nor the album, there are much better.

Note that there's also death metal growling in one of the songs and more using of profanity language. Looks like quite experimental album to me.

Mike Portnoy's vocal style is sometimes referred to as "rapping".


Quick google search revealed this:

http://www.petrucciforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49464

There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 09:35
I just wanted to make sure we are all clear on one thing: When a vocalist doesn't sing the notes like a conventional melody, it could be deemed a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to state they're just rapping.
Although say, the Fall are NOT prog, their singer  vocalist Mark E. Smith can't/won't sing whatever vestige of melodic outline is suggested by the music - (but he doesn't sound remotely like a hip-hop artist.)

There are many examples in Prog where vocalists who can clearly sing brilliantly, choose to exploit techniques like 'talking on pitch' (e.g. Gabriel on The Battle of Epping Forest/Get Em Out By Friday and Arthur Brown on Fire Poem) plus Sprechstimme/Sprechgesang (which I think I can  hear in Demetrio Stratos and also Peter Hamill on occasion)

Such departures from traditional pitched narrative when used appropriately, can enhance the dramatic and emotional content of the music.

However, re the thread starter, perhaps it's the defining cyclic nature of dance music that prohibits Rap's development into Prog ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 10:36
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

I wondered whether Trip Hop had a place here?  EDIT :  A: No its not RAP idiot.  But I will leave this anyway. Big smile Really just an excuse to post this beautiful track.  Listen if you haven't heard it before!
 
 
Interesting thread cheers

I've seen more than one person scrobble Massive Attack here. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 11:31
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

I know many people here won't agree with me, but I believe that Faith No More (one of the first bands to fuse rock and hip-hop) had more than a few progressive traits, especially on their album Angel Dust.
Add Red Hot Chili Peppers and Beastie Boys in the list of pioneers.
 
 
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 11:44
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

I wondered whether Trip Hop had a place here?  EDIT :  A: No its not RAP idiot.  But I will leave this anyway. Big smile Really just an excuse to post this beautiful track.  Listen if you haven't heard it before!
 
 
Interesting thread cheers

I've seen more than one person scrobble Massive Attack here. Smile
 
Thanks for the Vote of Confidence A Person.  I'm sure that Portishead will also have been 'Scrobbled' ? Wink
 
^  Beasties are always very inventive - not so sure about Red Hot Chillies! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2010 at 11:54
^
RHCP sold their soul to the devil.
 
 
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 31 2010 at 17:58
If there's one thing that undergroup rap beats "prog rock" artists at everytime, it's the lyrics.

Sage Francis is one of my favourites in particular.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F4KiuvLo6Y

Really simple when you think about it but so poetic. It's not what you'd expect from a rapper.
And lo, the mighty riffage was played and it was good


<a href="www.last.fm/user/jonzo67" targe
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 31 2010 at 20:00
Well I mean at it's purist form, rap is just poetry. And whoever said you cannot put poetry to prog rock? If done right I'm sure it'd sound amazing
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2010 at 01:01
Finally got my hands on Deep Puddle Dynamics' The Taste Of Rain Why Kneel, which is generally considered one of the most lyrically advanced rap records of all time... all I need now is time to digest it...
 
btw, how can you go past MC Del The Funky Homosapien's performance here, legendary stuff. This is the overture to Deltron 3030, the concept album about a future dystopia where music is controlled by sinister global corporations and our heroic hero Deltron Zero along with his DJ Dan The Automator defect from the mech troops and steal a spaceship to set off on a journey to take music back. 2112 anybody?
 
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