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Textbook 
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 Topic: Help With English In Reviews
Posted: January 23 2010 at 01:23 |
I can't help but notice the sizable number of reviews on the site written in mangled English. At best it makes for awkward reading, at worst it seriously impacts on the clarity of the writer's opinion. I'm not blaming anyone for this- in fact I think the site should allow reviews in other languages and add a filter for it in the search engine- but in the meantime maybe help could be offered?
I'm an English Language teacher so my understanding of grammar/vocabulary should be pretty good. The other languages I speak (though I'm not a master in either) are German and Mandarin, but that may be irrelevant as I'm not suggesting I translate, but that I or others read and rewrite reviews from those who are aware that their language may not be ideal. You'd submit the review to the "language team", they'd rewrite it, resend it to the author, gets approved hopefully, up it goes.
This could even be applied to reviews by native speakers where English is not the issue but it just gets edited/rewritten to read better- of course in both cases it's voluntary.
To some this may sound like a big waste of time but for those who take this sites position as the premier prog site seriously (well it is in my book anyway) an increase in the number of clear, effective reviews should translate directly into it being more reliable and respected.
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Qboyy007
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Posted: January 23 2010 at 01:37 |
 Textbook wrote:
I can't help but notice the sizable number of reviews on the site written in mangled English. At best it makes for awkward reading, at worst it seriously impacts on the clarity of the writer's opinion. I'm not blaming anyone for this- in fact I think the site should allow reviews in other languages and add a filter for it in the search engine- but in the meantime maybe help could be offered?
I'm an English Language teacher so my understanding of grammar/vocabulary should be pretty good. The other languages I speak (though I'm not a master in either) are German and Mandarin, but that may be irrelevant as I'm not suggesting I translate, but that I or others read and rewrite reviews from those who are aware that their language may not be ideal. You'd submit the review to the "language team", they'd rewrite it, resend it to the author, gets approved hopefully, up it goes.
This could even be applied to reviews by native speakers where English is not the issue but it just gets edited/rewritten to read better- of course in both cases it's voluntary.
To some this may sound like a big waste of time but for those who take this sites position as the premier prog site seriously (well it is in my book anyway) an increase in the number of clear, effective reviews should translate directly into it being more reliable and respected. |
The problem with a language team is that sometimes they would perhaps alter the true meaning of a review that was originally unintended. Changing even the most insignificant words can have devastating effects on a piece of writing. Not to mention it seems like having a "language team" would come off as an affront to our bilingual friends. It just seems to melike it would carry a negative connotation.
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Tsevir Leirbag
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Posted: January 23 2010 at 01:39 |
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Not a bad idea, I think. But it'd be hard to do.
I think we should stick to the rules, everyone should post their reviews in English, maybe someone could just help them be clearer
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Les mains, les pieds balancés
Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers,
Un marin mort,
Il dormira
- Paul Éluard
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Textbook
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Posted: January 23 2010 at 02:36 |
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Well that's why it would be voluntary, not obligatory.
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fuxi
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Posted: January 23 2010 at 03:05 |
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I personally think this is a great idea. It would definitely raise the standard of Progarchives reviews. What makes your suggestion so appealing, is that the editors would not merely alter a review; they would NEGOTIATE with the original writer. This seems very reasonable.
As a professional author/translator, I have often thought some reviews would really benefit from editing. I keep saying my own reviews need revising; especially the first 100 or so, some of which were written fairly casually! (I'm not a native speaker of English, but I've done most of my studies in English, I've lived in England since 1996 and I've been teaching in English to students from all over the planet for the past five years or so.)
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Marty McFly
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Posted: January 25 2010 at 04:23 |
There is about 50 reviews each day, so it would be hard, but when we reduce these in a good shape (after all, most of reviews written here are in a good English form, or at least it seems like it to me).
I'm not English Language teacher, but I'm studying university to be one. Even I passed all my English exams (and had problems with Czech linguistics, damn it), I know that I have certain problems with English, mostly when: 1)I'm not sure which preposition should be put there. 2)I'm trying to do some complicated compound sentence, mostly including my favorite element - would. 3)Am using both British and American English. Favorite / Favourite, but it can be worse 4)Am using it's / don't ... or even worse, terms like: wanna / lotta / gotta / gonna etc 5)Am not so sure how to say something and dictionary isn't helping, in these cases, results are terrible 6) (!) am doing grammatical mistakes. Mostly in tenses. Because yes, I want to be a teacher 7)Still am not able to tell where to put: a / an / the 8)Bad, Yoda-like order of words in sentences. Not bad, but may look like archaism. Yes, I'm supplementing most of these by memory. I simply know that "this" should be written "here", from countless films, TV series, words I've read on the internet and music I've been listening. Phrases, these are most easily to remember, as they are simply used. Also, spell checker helps. However, I can say basically everything I want to say. When I lack terminology, I search the internet for clue, guide, or hint, mostly on wikipedia (for rough information it's good enough)
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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my
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Atavachron
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Posted: January 25 2010 at 04:57 |
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hang in there Martin, I think you do a great job and admire your determination --
- either British or American is fine (though you may prefer one; just keep it consistent, like in a review if you decide to use British spelling keep it British for the whole review)
- terms like 'wanna' or 'gotta' are incorrect but also can add a casual quality that can give a review a natural feeling
- yes the dictionary is not always helpful, especially computer or online ones; find a good Websters or Oxford-- even better, get a good Thesaurus or Synonym Finder, they can be a good source of inspiration (as long as you don't overdo it ;)
- I can see how 'a', 'an', and 'the' could cause confusion
- a Yoda-like order of words is sometimes not so terrible: "Your father's rock music this is not."
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Bonnek
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Posted: January 25 2010 at 05:09 |
I find the built-in spelling/grammar checker and synonym functionality in Microsoft Word quite helpful. Also Firefox does some nice spelling suggestions (even though it's underlying 'firefox' right now  )
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: January 25 2010 at 06:25 |
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I actually like the idea as a voluntary one. It would help the writer hone their English skills.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Epignosis
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Posted: January 25 2010 at 06:30 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
I actually like the idea as a voluntary one. It would help the writer hone their his English skills.
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Raff
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Posted: January 25 2010 at 06:49 |
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Well, I believe it could be a good idea, but I have to admit in all honesty that I'm not so sure. Personally speaking, I tend to be quite heavy-handed when editing a text (I am a certified teacher of English, though now I teach Italian, which is my native language), and this doesn't always fly very well. I am also the kind of person who would never write anything that is going to be published (on the web or elsewhere) without being 100% sure of her skills, but that's just me and my perfectionism.
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Marty McFly
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Posted: January 25 2010 at 17:27 |
[QUOTE=Atavachron]hang in there Martin, I think you do a great job and admire your determination -- Thank you dear sir David for your sincere words, which pleased me more than I though before (before what, before when ? oh my dear, these ideas are incomplete :-) )
- either British or American is fine (though you may prefer one; just keep it consistent, like in a review if you decide to use British spelling keep it British for the whole review) That's hard, because I have some words memorized as English (taught in school) and others like American (from movies / TV). But you're right, spell checker can help. One exception. When talking about ANY COLOUR YOU LIKE, always use British :-) it's something like homage to it. Provided that you use any other word colour except name of the song.
Oops, underlined, seems like American English reigns here. - terms like 'wanna' or 'gotta' are incorrect but also can add a casual quality that can give a review a natural feeling
I see. Will keep this on my mind. I do use various techniques in my reviews, including direct speech to reader, colloquialisms and short stories. Soon, poems will come. - yes the dictionary is not always helpful, especially computer or online ones; find a good Websters or Oxford-- even better, get a good Thesaurus or Synonym Finder, they can be a good source of inspiration (as long as you don't overdo it ;)
I would more need some music lectures, terminology from prog world. I can recognize Mellotron, but that's all. Everything else is for me synth, or keyboards. Am not sure what's the difference, but again- I can feel it.
- I can see how 'a', 'an', and 'the' could cause confusion They can. I naturally say: Go to THE shop, but I don't know why. I'm just used to do it. There are rules, definite / indefinite articles. Again - caused by fact that my language does not have them. We can use them, but it depends on situation and mostly, they're not needed (though they're possible) - a Yoda-like order of words is sometimes not so terrible: "Your father's rock music this is not."
Serious: Very rarely ..... Humorous: you know ... random Yoda talk ;-) (good ol' young Marty's getting lazy)
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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my
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LiquidEternity
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Posted: January 25 2010 at 17:52 |
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Helping with this is one of the services I'd most like to offer the site. However, my schedule is just too busy. I don't mean I get to walk in and clean up reviews, but more just fix the English on a few reviews sent to me beforehand. I dunno. It would be confusing. But helpful. And I wish I had the time and patience to actually commit to something like that, but I'm in my last year at university, and I have a LOT of things to get done. So casual browsing/time wasting is alright, but full-on internet projects probably need to wait.
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seventhsojourn
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Posted: January 25 2010 at 18:51 |
I really don't know about this one. On the surface it seems like a good idea and I certainly wouldn't discount it out of hand. I might even be willing to offer my services if PA would have me! However, by Textbook's own admission there are already many existing reviews written in ''mangled English'' (to use his/her words). Would the proposed language team have to sift through every review in order to edit them?
Although I've only been a member since December 2009, I've been visiting PA on an almost daily basis for three years. Most of the time I can grasp the meaning of reviews, even when written by someone with limited English language skills. I think it's important that reviews reflect an individual's opinion of an album; the danger is that the text might be diluted, if not changed wholesale, by an editor. What would be the next step? What other standards would reviews have to conform to? We already have people selectively correcting spelling and grammatical errors in the forum. Ok this is light-hearted fun, but I think even the suggestion of having reviews vetoed might discourage people from doing reviews.
Just my tuppence worth.
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toroddfuglesteg
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Posted: January 26 2010 at 03:21 |
I have been living in this country -Scotland and Northern Ireland- now for 15 years. I am not entirely sure about this was/were, has/have and is/are grammar. I let my editors sort that one out. But I am trying my best to improve the grammar side of this language I could not care less about 20 years ago. .......... I am not entirely being encouraged to sort out my grammar too when even the locals have not sorted out their grammar. Not even BBC has got their grammar right. I think the English language is going to pieces and is being replaced by some variations of grunts from the belly. Back to the trees and the monkey world.
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seventhsojourn
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Posted: January 26 2010 at 10:51 |
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
I have been living in this country -Scotland and Northern Ireland- now for 15 years. I am not entirely sure about this was/were, has/have and is/are grammar. I let my editors sort that one out. But I am trying my best to improve the grammar side of this language I could not care less about 20 years ago.
.......... I am not entirely being encouraged to sort out my grammar too when even the locals have not sorted out their grammar. Not even BBC has got their grammar right. I think the English language is going to pieces and is being replaced by some variations of grunts from the belly. Back to the trees and the monkey world.
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Hi toroddfuglesteg, I always enjoy your reviews... great stuff!
As far as this post goes, I broadly agree that the use of Standard English is sadly on the decline. However this is not confined to Scotland; as toroddfuglesteg states, you only have to tune in to any television station in the UK to hear that region's peculiar dialect. In my opinion, the deterioration in the English language is just another sign of the ''dumbing-down'' of society. I'm actually quite embarassed at times when listening to some of my fellow Scots. Of course toroddfuglesteg is making a generalisation, as not all us Scots are knuckle-draggers! 
So what is my point in relation to the original thread? Well, ''grunts from the belly'' may not sound beautiful, but if others understand those grunts then they amount to effective communication. By the same token, even if a review is written in broken English (if I may use that expression) I find it entirely acceptable as long as I get the gist of it.
As I stated in my initial post, I do think that voluntary editing is a fine idea and it could be of real worth to some members. However, I just have this nagging doubt that it would then become compulsory and be seen as a barrier by others.
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toroddfuglesteg
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Posted: January 26 2010 at 12:21 |
The worst offenders in BBC is not the Scots, Seventhsojourn. The worst offenders are those in the home counties and London. Those in the BBC offices in London, in other words. Check out BBC News from London and stop counting at twenty. It won't take you long........ But I understand what this thread is about. I have never had problems understanding the zest of any reviews here. Sometimes I think people here get lost in a forest of their own thoughts and drown themselves in a room full of braincell-spaghetti. But that is another debate.
Edited by toroddfuglesteg - January 26 2010 at 12:22
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Textbook
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Posted: January 27 2010 at 01:12 |
I maintain that the best fix is to allow non-English reviews. (Which I think among other things would greatly increase the amount of traffic/contributions ProgArchives gets. See also the establishment of a non-English folder in the forum.) But in the meantime if we're going to insist on English, assistance should be offered to those who want it. This would not be retro-active- already published reviews would be left alone unless their author wants to contact the language team and revise them. It would be an option in the review submitting screen- "Do you want to submit your review to the language team before publication? The edited review will be PM'd to you for approval before publishing."
And it's a fair point to keep in mind that incomprehensible reviews are sometimes not the result of language deficiencies but bad writing. The emphasis would be on technical correction but if there are egregious cases of purple prose and the like, language team could suggest revisions. And remember, it would be suggested, not enforced.
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Marty McFly
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Posted: January 27 2010 at 01:52 |
This scheme has some flaws, as much as I hate to say, because how for example would I be able to read Spanish, French, Russian (which I speak / understand crudely), Portuguese, Italian, Eastern / Southern Europe languages (which I would understand also, very barely), or Polish (which is fun to read few words, but entire reviews would be quite hard ... and Czech Republic is neighbor of Poland).
Only review I would be able to read properly, except English would be Slovak one and honestly, how many Slovaks do contribute these days :- / My idea is either leave it be as it is, or fix the worst reviews. Allowing non-English ones would make confusion if you ask me. Now, I can read all reviews published here. What's the best way to announce French prog gem of 70's that nobody knows ? Write review in English, instead of French, that not everyone can talk.
After all, reviews here aren't this bad, are they ? If you want to take my reviews for analysis, you are free to, make suggestion, point errors. I'll fix them, or try to write certain things differently, or to expand review with fresh mind at all. Even at point of 420 pieces, it's hard, very hard to accomplish.
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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my
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Atavachron
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Posted: January 27 2010 at 02:02 |
seventhsojourn wrote:
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
I have been living in this country -Scotland and Northern Ireland- now for 15 years. I am not entirely sure about this was/were, has/have and is/are grammar. I let my editors sort that one out. But I am trying my best to improve the grammar side of this language I could not care less about 20 years ago ... I am not entirely being encouraged to sort out my grammar too when even the locals have not sorted out their grammar. Not even BBC has got their grammar right. I think the English language is going to pieces and is being replaced by some variations of grunts from the belly. Back to the trees and the monkey world. |
Hi toroddfuglesteg, I always enjoy your reviews... great stuff!
As far as this post goes, I broadly agree that the use of Standard English is sadly on the decline. However this is not confined to Scotland; as toroddfuglesteg states, you only have to tune in to any television station in the UK to hear that region's peculiar dialect. In my opinion, the deterioration in the English language is just another sign of the ''dumbing-down'' of society. I'm actually quite embarassed at times when listening to some of my fellow Scots. Of course toroddfuglesteg is making a generalisation, as not all us Scots are knuckle-draggers! |
funny-- I watch BBC World News often to get an intelligent, rational, adult news report that is much better than most news in the U.S... I guess it depends on your perspective. ...BTW, proud to be Scottish
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Help With English In Reviews
