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Dean defies the normal laws of physics in that way.

I´ll see you all in hell... from heaven

el böthy wrote: I´ll see you all in hell... from heaven

I don't thinks there's anything in bible that says you can see through heaven to hell.  I mean after all, there's all those clouds and rocks in the way. 

Dean wrote: Slartibartfast wrote: el böthy wrote: I´ll see you all in hell... from heaven I don't thinks there's anything in bible that says you can see through heaven to hell.  I mean after all, there's all those clouds and rocks in the way.  The bible does say there is a mountain where you can see all the kingdoms of the world, so anything's possible.

Actually, the Bible inadvertently denies the notion that anybody "goes to Heaven" after they die:

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man." (John 3:13)


²⁹"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. ³⁰But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. ³¹Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[f] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. ³²God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. ³³Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. ³⁴For David did not ascend to heaven.  (Acts 2:29-34, emphasis mine)

Dean wrote: ^ kind of conflicts with Enoch and Mary

The Bible never explicitly says what happens to Enoch...(you could have gone with Elijah -2 Kings 2:11- which might have yielded a more interesting discussion )

But what happened to Mary? 

Dean wrote: Epignosis wrote: Dean wrote: ^ kind of conflicts with Enoch and Mary The Bible never explicitly says what happens to Enoch...(you could have gone with Elijah -2 Kings 2:11- which might have yielded a more interesting discussion ) But what happened to Mary?  Genesis 5:24 - "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."   I forgot Elijah     Though not biblical, the fate of Mary is not mentioned, some say she was also assumed into heaven.

I have learned only to assume things when language or culture would urge me to do so...Enoch's exact fate remains a mystery to me still, but I don't dawdle over it (What does "God took him away" mean?  I honestly have no idea, but I've never studied it either).

Ivan (and other Catholics) may have something else to say, but I of course do not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary (she had other children and the Bible is clear on that), and of course if the Bible doesn't say what happened to Mary after her death, I don't care to speculate. 

Epignosis wrote: Dean wrote: Epignosis wrote: Dean wrote: ^ kind of conflicts with Enoch and Mary The Bible never explicitly says what happens to Enoch...(you could have gone with Elijah -2 Kings 2:11- which might have yielded a more interesting discussion ) But what happened to Mary?  Genesis 5:24 - "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."   I forgot Elijah     Though not biblical, the fate of Mary is not mentioned, some say she was also assumed into heaven. I have learned only to assume things when language or culture would urge me to do so...Enoch's exact fate remains a mystery to me still, but I don't dawdle over it (What does "God took him away" mean?  I honestly have no idea, but I've never studied it either).

Not just Catholics, but many protestant faiths hold in the perpetual virginity of Mary. The NT isn't that clear on whether the "brothers" and "sisters" of Jesus where Mary's children or not. They could be cousins (brothers in the extended family sense) or just some of the 70 (or 120) disciples that Jesus called "brother" in the fraternity sense.

 

 

Edited by Dean - December 26 2009 at 19:22

Epignosis wrote: I'm familiar with that argument, but it just doesn't make any sense contextually or scripturally.  I will admit now is not the time for me to go into details (family got home and the baby is screaming...and they've brought me delicious Christmas leftovers! ) On a related note, what is lost if Mary did not remain a virgin?  That is something I've never quite understood.  What is lost from salvation if Mary had other children after Jesus?

In my view, if Mary had not been venerated then Christianity would not have spread too far west from Israel and would have remained a predominantly Middle Eastern religion along with Judaism and Islam. The perpetual virgin was a means of raising her to divine status so she could replace the mother-goddess/matriarch role in early European cultures.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Epignosis wrote: Actually, the Bible inadvertently denies the notion that anybody "goes to Heaven" after they die: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man." (John 3:13) 29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[f] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven.  (Acts 2:29-34, emphasis mine)   Not quite exact, Jesus came with the purpose to allow us to be save, and Jesus says it in the cross:   Luke 23,42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 He replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."   The words are obvious.   BTW: John 3:13 only makes sense in the context of John 3, 5 - 13   5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spiritb]'>[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'Youc]'>[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." 10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.d]'>[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.e]'>[e]     It's only possible to be born by water and  spirit accepting Jesus Christ.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Yesterday I watched an interesting documentary (not in any way associated with Dawkins or the other "New Atheists", if anyone was wondering) about early Christianity (second/third century AC), and the drawings on the catacombs in Rome reveal that back then Christianity was mostly concerned with the miracles that Jesus performed. Most of those things you're arguing about here were added to the "story" much, much later. Original sin, the assumption of Mary ... those are all pure works of fiction, as far as I'm concerned. If there was any truth to any of that, why was it omitted in the catacombs drawings?

You are overlooking an important point when looking at ancient art (that any art-historian will tell you) - context. The early christian religion was outlawed during the first three centuries and nowhere was the persecution more violent and thoroughly than in Rome itself. It was figuratively and literally forced underground, with the catacombs being illicit internment burial grounds for the early christians who did not follow the Roman tradition of cremation. The tradition was to depict living events on tombs, not spiritual ones (which were difficult to render in simple pictures), so they drew on the gospel stories that were easy to portray in symbolic images that would be instantly recognisable to people familiar with those stories, therefore the images of Mary would be limited to the conception and nativity.