Progarchives.com has always (since 2002) relied on banners ads to cover web hosting fees and all.
Please consider supporting us by giving monthly PayPal donations and help keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage") |
|
Post Reply 
|
Page <1 1718192021 41> |
| Author | ||||
CPicard 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 03 2008 Location: Là, sui monti. Status: Offline Points: 10841 |
 Posted: December 17 2009 at 13:15 |
|||
|
Anyway, now the main problem is to determine if the apostles and the evangelists ever existed.
I'm still waiting for copies of the Evangiles which would be older than the 4th century. What a pity no one has ever found copies of the said texts which would date of the times of the apostles, in the 1st century. |
||||
 |
||||
|
jampa17
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: July 04 2009 Location: Guatemala Status: Offline Points: 6802 |
Posted: December 17 2009 at 14:34 |
|||
|
I think most of the especialist from the Bible, Theist and Atheist agreed that the Apostles did existed... the thing is that they actually didn't wrote the gospels, but is a certainly true that it was their disciples... It was discovered a papyrum from the second century, which is considered the earilest evidence of any gospel... is dated near 125 A.C. and the evidence within the gospel of John reveals that it was written maybe only 30 or 40 years after Jesus death... so... it's very likely, acording to the evidence, that the apostles did exist... most of the christian communities were establish by them so... the evidence is there... I apologyze for just posting wikipedias articles... but it's a little hard for me to find Catholic formal sites in english... and I'm at work so...
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
||||
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: December 17 2009 at 14:43 |
|||
Lets add some documents, starting by a non Christian
There are several documents besides the Bible, that accept the virginityvof Mary.
Iván
|
||||
|
||||
|
||||
|
Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: December 17 2009 at 14:48 |
|||
Mike does not spend his entire time monitoring the atheist discussions in the PA forum.  I read your post, and I still think that my theory is more rational ... I will definitely get Bart Ehrman's book and find out more about the Bible. |
||||
|
||||
|
Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: December 17 2009 at 14:51 |
|||
|
^^ sorry, but how does scripture from centuries later make the story more credible? Besides, the "virgin birth" myth dates back to Horus even. Of course it comes in handy when you need to beef up your story a little bit.
|
||||
|
||||
|
jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009 Location: Guatemala Status: Offline Points: 6802 |
Posted: December 17 2009 at 14:56 |
|||
|
Fine by me dude... there's plenty of work about the gospels... it only depends on you to check them... so... I have to run... comeback maybe tomorrow... good night....
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
||||
|
Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5210 |
Posted: December 17 2009 at 15:04 |
|||
One of the themes of the article I mentioned in the other thread is that among the things "hard-wired" in the human mind is our use of narrative as a way to organize information. In fact, it is probably the primary way in which most of humanity sees the world. The analytical is an aspect of our psyches, but it is only us nerds (seen as a bit odd by the majority) who think that the world can be reduced to only the analytical.
Similarly, the ancient wisdoms use stories, parables, myths, not so much as literal descriptions but at lesson teachers.
Part of the problem is that we now live in a society designed by rationalists but inhabited by humans who are not entirely rational in the strictest sense. And, in fact, you can't convince them, because they are hard-wired in a different way.
Ideas are theirs, some conclusions mine.
|
||||
|
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
|
||||
|
||||
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: December 17 2009 at 15:24 |
|||
Not accurate Mike, seems that your lack of knowledge about Mythology is as big as your lack of knowledge of Theology. Let me explain you: Osiris was Isis husband and he was killed by his brother Set, but Osiris made a spell that she learned from her father. This spell allowed Isis to get pregnant of Horus by Osiris before he died again. This has no relation with virginity..just in case. A second version is less romantic:
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 17 2009 at 16:22 |
||||
|
|
||||
|
||||
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 17 2009 at 15:33 |
|||
There is a line of thought (don't ask me where - the source is lost in 52 years of memory
 ) that suggests that the stories, parables and fables were a deliberate hiding of the message rather than as simplification for the masses. They were either not intended to be consciously understood or coded so that only "those in the know" got the message. |
||||
|
What?
|
||||
|
||||
|
Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5210 |
Posted: December 17 2009 at 15:40 |
|||
While that may be true in some cases, the narrative structure of knowledge in psychology is a pretty standard part of psychologic science. My expansion of that into religion is a logical move many have made but is really unknowable.
|
||||
|
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
|
||||
|
||||
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32553 |
Posted: December 17 2009 at 15:42 |
|||
Good point, Dean. The New Testament is even explicit that Christ did just that on more than one occasion. |
||||
|
||||
|
Trademark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2006 Location: oHIo Status: Offline Points: 1009 |
Posted: December 18 2009 at 08:12 |
|||
|
"Ideas are theirs, some conclusions mine."
Ideas rule, facts are boring and conclusions take all the fun out of life.
 |
||||
|
||||
|
Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: December 18 2009 at 08:30 |
|||
Ok, so we have a "Zombie conception", or something like that.
Now this is definitely a Zombie conception. I'll definitely spend some time checking out these mythologies ... right now it seems to me that in any way, we have the choice between a virgin birth (if Osiris was always dead) or if seen another way, the creation of semen from Osiris' dead body, or some other miracle (like the resurrection of Osiris). In any case, it wasn't a normal conception. Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 18 2009 at 08:50 |
||||
|
||||
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: December 18 2009 at 08:52 |
|||
Mike, why can't you accept that you were wrong when proved wrong?
You said that the origins of the Virgin Mary are in Horus Myth, I proved it's false and you change the subject with a smiley instead of saying, yes, I was wrong.
Mike, the point is that you invented an argument to discredit our belief, I proved you didn't knew what you were talking about, but you insist in changing the subject and trying to escape using a non funny joke and an emoticon.
Iván
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
||||
|
Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: December 18 2009 at 08:57 |
|||
|
^ you cannot prove it false - you can list sources that claim it is false, and I'm inclined to believe them. I didn't invent it btw, I saw it throughout the net (on a number of websites) and I also saw it in Bill Maher's movie "Religulous" yesterday. I know that that doesn't mean it's true - like I said, if there are many more sources which say it's not true, then I'll happily accept that.
The fact remains though, and this you can't deny, that the concept of virgin birth occurs in many religions, many of which predate Christianity. I simply don't find it unlikely that some of the gospel writers simply assumed that that was what had happened. Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 18 2009 at 08:57 |
||||
|
||||
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 18 2009 at 09:21 |
|||
|
^ I've almost lost track of what Mike's original point was... it wasn't that the "origins of the Virgin Mary are in Horus Myth" but that the idea of virgin births was not new, so it wasn't that the Horus myth is virginal or not, (it counts as miraculous in some form or other), many world mythologies have stories of mortal women being impregnated by a god - some by the god becoming human (or a swan?!), others by mystical means (a sprinkling of gold). Even the foundation of Rome is based on one such myth - The war god Mars seduced the Vestal Virgin Rhea and she gave birth to twins Romulus and Remus - technically that can be seen as a virgin birth.
Edited by Dean - December 18 2009 at 09:22 |
||||
|
What?
|
||||
|
||||
|
Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: December 18 2009 at 09:25 |
|||
|
^ you're right, but I made the mistake of putting it the wrong way at one point, and it's only fair that I formally take it back, or admit that my statement lacked the appropriate sources to back it up. According to Iván I never do that, so let's see what he says. ;-)
|
||||
|
||||
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: December 18 2009 at 10:02 |
|||
As I said before Dean, as far as I know there's not such myth.
The Romulus and Remus myth is absolutely different, as I said begfore, the Mythological Gods adopted Human or Animal or any other form to have sexual intercourse with humans, so the virginity issue is out of the question, most of this myths are about horny gods having sex with humans.
In the case of Romulus and Remus, Mars in human form had sex with Rhea - Silvia while she was sleeping, this is not a virgin birth, this is a birth product of sex.
But the case of Virgin Mary is absolutely unique as far as I know (Well, except the mother of Anakin Skywalker
 ), the difference is very important to us is one of the fundamental issues of our faith, and comparing it with mythology is at least harsh.If somebody makes mockery of our beliefs are copied from mythology, this person has to provide reliable information, and every source proves Mikes comparison was made without any support.
It's very easy to attack our beliefs with wrong facts and after that to say..."This is a meaningless mistake", it's very important to us, probably it's meaningless for somebody who doesn't believe in thiss religious dogma, but for us it's transcendental..
We are not talking about horny gods raping women to satysfy their lust or womans taking semen from a corpse in a form of necrophilia, we are talking about a 100% virginal pregnancy without any sex.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 18 2009 at 10:14 |
||||
|
|
||||
|
||||
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 18 2009 at 13:22 |
|||
I did say "technically" (though I could have picked a better word if I could think of one) all the conditions for a virgin birth are there since the impregnation details are not explicit in all versions of the story. There are accounts of Mars discovering Shea in a forest while she was fetching water and not while she was sleeping - so even the mythologies are not precise.
Of course every mythological "virgin birth" story can be dismissed in such a manner, (even Zeus turning into a shower of golden dust to impregnate Danae), just a cursory glance through this list: http://englishatheist.org/indexd.shtml reveals many non-sexual impregnations that can be dismissed rationally, the text even illustrates this in its last example where a myth was built around someone who had a natural conception and birth.
point taken.
|
||||
|
What?
|
||||
|
||||
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: December 18 2009 at 15:13 |
|||
Thanks, this is the kind of reply I expected.
Iván.
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
||||
|
Post Reply
|
Page <1 1718192021 41> |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
The Theist - Agnostic - Atheist Poll
Topic Options
Dean wrote: