List manipulation?

While I agree that these master raters use 1 & 5 to create the largest impact on the average rating, I seriously doubt it ha anything to do with collab weighting - in fact I would be surprised if the even knew such a weighting existed. It's simply fanboyism.

What bugs me is the suspicion that people who rate albums one star, while giving a fave band/ artist's album five stars in order to get their fave a higher ranking, haven't even listened to the one star album, let alone given it a fair hearing.

I wish that at least one star ratings required reviews or there could be a rule limiting  allowability when it comes to someone rating one album a one and another a five that are clearly competing in a "top" albums list.

Logan wrote: What bugs me is the suspicion that people who rate albums one star, while giving a fave band/ artist's album five stars in order to get their fave a higher ranking, haven't even listened to the one star album, let alone given it a fair hearing. I wish that at least one star ratings required reviews or there could be a rule limiting  allowability when it comes to someone rating one album a one and another a five that are clearly competing in a "top" albums list.

You're right Logan, there is a risk that we tar people with an unfair brush. On the other hand, when people rate a band's entire catalogue with one star, or rate every album in our chart above their own favourite with one star, I think we have strong evidence of fixing.

Well, such 1 and/or 5 fanboy is to no use for this site by my opinion.

Just a note regarding E-Re, speaking as a fanboy: I've been following the ratings of both of the top two albums now for 2009 (I haven't heard The Tangent's latest) and notice, while I think the fanbases would be different on the whole so I would not expect that many who are big on The Tangent to be big on Magma (even if particular albums could appeal to people of each group) that recently the less than glowing raters for E-Re are giving The Tangent's latest a five (I guess both could appeal to retro prog fans), and I'm one of those who gave E-Re a five after much consternation (I quickly bumped it from a four to reflect on my enjoyment of the album, even though I'm torn between rating it a four or five, and no, my rating does not reflect on the race).

When a lower rating without review for The tangent's comes up, I can almost be sure that that person has highly rated The Tangent's newest.  I think the one stars will be avoided, though, since so many of those who have been removed as clear ratings manipulation (not singling out Tangent fans, as most of those happened before The Tangent's release).

Have a look, and I'm not accusing people of abuse, but I find it interesting as both of the top albums are so close in the top spot race.  I'm going from the latest E-Re ratings (ratings without review), and then checking that members review profile (and note that for each user I have not included all ratings, but it's interesting that so many of them have rated the same albums similarly beyond these two -- each block of ratings is taken from a review profile, except for Astryos -- the second to last E-Re rater at this time):


THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)

Astryos (Michael K)  for E-Re
and no review for The Tangent

THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
MAGMA Christian Vander - "Wurdah Ïtah"(rating only)
He did rate Wurdah Itah with a five, and I wouldn't suggest a smoke-screen.

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
No rating of The Tangent's

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
No rating of The tangent's

THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)
Rated three of this years releases, and all quite favourably.

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)

TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)
THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
Another 5 star rating for E-Re and none for The Tangent's

THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
No rating for The Tangent's

MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)
THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London | review
Chosen the various 2009 ones.

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
Again, no The Tangent.

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
No The Tangent

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
No The Tangent

TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind (rating only)
MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second (rating only)
RIVERSIDE Anno Domini High Definition (rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê (rating only)
No The Tangent

MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)

TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)
MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second(rating only)
No Tangent review.

PORCUPINE TREE The Incident(rating only)
PHIDEAUX Number Seven(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second(rating only)
No Tangent review.

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)
No Tangent review.

TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)
BETWEEN THE BURIED AND ME The Great Misdirect(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
NO tangent review.

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
No Tangent review

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
No Tangent review from Igor (P-J)

THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind | review
MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second | review
EPIGNOSIS Still the Waters(rating only)
5 stars for both E-Re and Down and Out, but low ratings for other very well-regarded by some releases for the year.

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
And a five for an earlier Tangent release.

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
No The Tangent

THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
INDUKTI Idmen(rating only)
A one for Down and Out AND E-Re, and a five for Idmen.

THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
TRANSATLANTIC The Whirlwind(rating only)
MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Part the Second(rating only)
1-3 stars ratings for the year (though I know I'm missing this year's releases in various lists)

MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
No Tangent or others from this year


I seem to have come to the end of the list for Tangent ones.

EDIT: And the latest ratings (without review) for E-Re since I posted the list above:

• freehandgg
• eder88

MIRIODOR Avanti!(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
THE TANGENT Not As Good As The Book(rating only)
THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)

BRIGHTEYE BRISON Believers & Deceivers(rating only)
BETWEEN THE BURIED AND ME The Great Misdirect(rating only)
MAGMA Ëmëhntëhtt-Rê(rating only)
THE TANGENT Not As Good As The Book(rating only)
THE TANGENT Down And Out In Paris And London(rating only)
GENTLE GIANT Free Hand (rating only)

Note: I did this using the Magma page as a base (there are others who have rated both albums that I could check from reviews). And I have no problem with someone not giving E-Re a glowing review (I would expect various people who really like Magma to only give it a three).  I do find it a bit odd that there are so many similar ratings (and that so many raters have rated much the same albums if using full lists as a guide --possibly some multi-nicking and members of the same outside PA community).

I know that tmnay of these are threes, and that is a "good" rating.


Edited by Logan - December 11 2009 at 19:56

Logan wrote: Just a note regarding E-Re, speaking as a fanboy: I've been following the ratings of both of the top two albums now for 2009 (I haven't heard The Tangent's latest) and notice, while I think the fanbases would be different on the whole so I would not expect that many who are big on The Tangent to be big on Magma (even if particular albums could appeal to people of each group) that recently the less than glowing raters for E-Re are giving The Tangent's latest a five (I guess both could appeal to retro prog fans), and I'm one of those who gave E-Re a five after much consternation (I quickly bumped it from a four to reflect on my enjoyment of the album, even though I'm torn between rating it a four or five, and no, my rating does not reflect on the race). When a lower rating without review for The tangent's comes up, I can almost be sure that that person has highly rated The Tangent's newest.  I think the one stars will be avoided, though, since so many of those who have been removed as clear ratings manipulation (not singling out Tangent fans, as most of those happened before The Tangent's release). ......

I just noticed the same thing. Moreover, if you isolate the ones that gave The Tangent 5 and Magma 2-3 (there was a huge patch of 10-15 of these within the last week or so), you'll notice they all just joined within the last week or so, too - as if just to rate these specific albums and a couple miscellaneous others. This batch is just smart enough to avoid giving straight 1s and drawing attention.

I can vouch for inrainbows...this is person I've actually made contact with outside of PA.

How much of this do you think can be chalked up to different tastes in styles?

I mean, they are the top two albums of 2009 right now, and they are quite different bands, and yet the spotlight is on them despite the genre.  Just thinking out loud here, I guess.

I personally have not heard either album, but I am really interested.

Ah.  I see the nature of your concern.

Why can't we just get rid of ratings without reviews? can't people just review the albums?

Yeah, Magma's rating keeps going down. It was 4.49 after my 5-star review and went down in a matter of hours, i guess because my rating might have put it 1st place again.

The tangent's album sounds good tho, better and more mature than "Place in the Queue".