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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2009 at 20:18
^ As far as I recall, I never did ... but of course I can only speak for myself.Wink
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2009 at 20:25
Right on buddy.  You speak for yourself.  Thumbs Up
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2009 at 20:25
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Satanism is actually Theism ... in order to be a Satanist, you have to first believe in the Christian God. Atheists can't be Satanists, since they don't think that there's any of those superstitious characters. 


Okay...(never thought I'd be saying this but)...you don't know the Christian Bible anymore than you know The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey. 


No, no no, Satanism is every other religion apart from your own Wink
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2009 at 20:31
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Satanism is actually Theism ... in order to be a Satanist, you have to first believe in the Christian God. Atheists can't be Satanists, since they don't think that there's any of those superstitious characters. 


Okay...(never thought I'd be saying this but)...you don't know the Christian Bible anymore than you know The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey. 


No, no no, Satanism is every other religion apart from your own Wink


Except, friend...I don't believe in Satan.  Smile  Bullying Christians made him up.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2009 at 20:42
To the guy with the weird long name, I'm not a satanist. I've read LeVey's book and, kind of coherent as it is, it promotes a self-centered narcissistic society, totally individualistic, the likes of which I could never support.

I only use Baphomet for lack of a better "I don't believe in your god" avatar. But I know it's actually a contradiction. For one, Satan would be a deity; for other, it's a christian deity on top of things.

It's just a remnant of the times when I needed to tell things that none really should care about. It's a sign of my dark side. Nothing else.

Besides, it's as metal as it gets
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Points: 5210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2009 at 20:51
I read some of it too along time ago...hedonism, self-serving stuff that strangely resembles society today.
 
hmmmmm.....
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2009 at 20:57
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

I read some of it too along time ago...hedonism, self-serving stuff that strangely resembles society today.
 
hmmmmm.....
Conversely, I have observed satanists being altruistic - so it would appear that regardless of whatever model people choose to follow, it is difficult to change human nature.
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2009 at 03:17
^ indeed there appears to be a human code of behavior that transcends religion (or the absence of it). People don't need religion to teach them right from wrong.
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Points: 5210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2009 at 07:42

It depends what you call religion. Ethical behavior is a learned quality, culturally defined. But you're right that it can be completely independent of your beliefs regarding deities.

Just to be a pest, I will make the claim that ethics does depend on the way you've decided to live your life in the Universe, i.e. your subject reality. Again, an area where religion and spirituality can be extremely useful.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2009 at 08:24
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

It depends what you call religion. Ethical behavior is a learned quality, culturally defined. But you're right that it can be completely independent of your beliefs regarding deities.

Just to be a pest, I will make the claim that ethics does depend on the way you've decided to live your life in the Universe, i.e. your subject reality. Again, an area where religion and spirituality can be extremely useful.
While I'm reluctant to get into ethics as it is outside my sphere of interest, I do think that the root of all ethical behaviour is biological ,,, if we were an advanced (ie intelligent) predatory species (like raptors) then I think our (natural) ethics would be different. While how we apply those natural ethics is culturally learned, we would not have the capacity to learn them if they were not in some part genetic or founded on some genetic coding.
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Points: 5210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2009 at 08:52

Well, to me ethics is math, "The greatest good for the greatest possible number of people."

Of course, what gets defined as good and who gets counted as people is up for debate. Small furry creatuers would have a tougher chance being counter if we were raptors.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2009 at 09:15
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Well, to me ethics is math, "The greatest good for the greatest possible number of people."

Of course, what gets defined as good and who gets counted as people is up for debate. Small furry creatuers would have a tougher chance being counter if we were raptors.

I could counter that view with ethics is survival "The art of living in a community without being ostracised".
 
Small furry animals (counting as people) is related in some quarters to vegetarianism, (note the comments following the last time I broached this subject) which is an ethical diet not a natural one, would an advanced raptor species develop vegetarianism?
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2009 at 09:21
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Well, to me ethics is math, "The greatest good for the greatest possible number of people."

Of course, what gets defined as good and who gets counted as people is up for debate. Small furry creatuers would have a tougher chance being counter if we were raptors.



Who mentioned small furry creatures ? Where are the raptors ? I repent, I repent. Cry
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2009 at 09:29
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

It depends what you call religion. Ethical behavior is a learned quality, culturally defined. But you're right that it can be completely independent of your beliefs regarding deities.

Just to be a pest, I will make the claim that ethics does depend on the way you've decided to live your life in the Universe, i.e. your subject reality. Again, an area where religion and spirituality can be extremely useful.


A while ago I described the experiment with very young children who prefer images of people who are supportive (e.g. helping someone climbing a hill) over images of people who are fighting (e.g. someone pushing another down a hill). This contradicts your assumption that ethics is a learned quality. Well, maybe we can agree that although some behavior will be learned, some basic behavior is encoded in our genes.
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2009 at 09:31
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Well, to me ethics is math, "The greatest good for the greatest possible number of people."

Of course, what gets defined as good and who gets counted as people is up for debate. Small furry creatuers would have a tougher chance being counter if we were raptors.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnXmDaI8IEo

You can see in the scans of the brain that although math and weighing effects etc. is a part in the process, empathic, instinctive processes kick in earlier.
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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2009 at 12:41
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

It depends what you call religion. Ethical behavior is a learned quality, culturally defined. But you're right that it can be completely independent of your beliefs regarding deities.

Just to be a pest, I will make the claim that ethics does depend on the way you've decided to live your life in the Universe, i.e. your subject reality. Again, an area where religion and spirituality can be extremely useful.
While I'm reluctant to get into ethics as it is outside my sphere of interest, I do think that the root of all ethical behaviour is biological ,,, if we were an advanced (ie intelligent) predatory species (like raptors) then I think our (natural) ethics would be different. While how we apply those natural ethics is culturally learned, we would not have the capacity to learn them if they were not in some part genetic or founded on some genetic coding.

But indeed an evolutionary approach only to ethics is unsatisfying. It may be the root, but it's a shadow compared to society's impact on ethics, which in itself is probably a shadow of optimal ethical behavior. I don't buy the idea that just because we are this way and have the appearance of ethical behavior means that we are ethical. That's not a good conception of ethics.

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Well, to me ethics is math, "The greatest good for the greatest possible number of people."


In utilitarianism, that is definitely (impractically) true.


Edited by stonebeard - December 06 2009 at 12:42
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2009 at 13:11
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

It depends what you call religion. Ethical behavior is a learned quality, culturally defined. But you're right that it can be completely independent of your beliefs regarding deities.

Just to be a pest, I will make the claim that ethics does depend on the way you've decided to live your life in the Universe, i.e. your subject reality. Again, an area where religion and spirituality can be extremely useful.
While I'm reluctant to get into ethics as it is outside my sphere of interest, I do think that the root of all ethical behaviour is biological ,,, if we were an advanced (ie intelligent) predatory species (like raptors) then I think our (natural) ethics would be different. While how we apply those natural ethics is culturally learned, we would not have the capacity to learn them if they were not in some part genetic or founded on some genetic coding.

But indeed an evolutionary approach only to ethics is unsatisfying. It may be the root, but it's a shadow compared to society's impact on ethics, which in itself is probably a shadow of optimal ethical behavior. I don't buy the idea that just because we are this way and have the appearance of ethical behavior means that we are ethical. That's not a good conception of ethics.

As I said, outside my sphere of interest. I did not know until 5 minutes ago that there was such things as Natural Ethics and Evolutionary Ethics.
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2009 at 13:15
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

It depends what you call religion. Ethical behavior is a learned quality, culturally defined. But you're right that it can be completely independent of your beliefs regarding deities.

Just to be a pest, I will make the claim that ethics does depend on the way you've decided to live your life in the Universe, i.e. your subject reality. Again, an area where religion and spirituality can be extremely useful.
While I'm reluctant to get into ethics as it is outside my sphere of interest, I do think that the root of all ethical behaviour is biological ,,, if we were an advanced (ie intelligent) predatory species (like raptors) then I think our (natural) ethics would be different. While how we apply those natural ethics is culturally learned, we would not have the capacity to learn them if they were not in some part genetic or founded on some genetic coding.

But indeed an evolutionary approach only to ethics is unsatisfying. It may be the root, but it's a shadow compared to society's impact on ethics, which in itself is probably a shadow of optimal ethical behavior. I don't buy the idea that just because we are this way and have the appearance of ethical behavior means that we are ethical. That's not a good conception of ethics.

As I said, outside my sphere of interest. I did not know until 5 minutes ago that there was such things as Natural Ethics and Evolutionary Ethics.


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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2009 at 13:20
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

As I said, outside my sphere of interest. I did not know until 5 minutes ago that there was such things as Natural Ethics and Evolutionary Ethics.


It's just one of the topics of the videos I keep linking to. Once you can get past the fact that they're on the Dawkins channel ... Wink
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Points: 7053 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2009 at 14:15

I'm truly atheist (yes I'm one of those boring ones who thinks no true God would let the horrors happen) and equally truly believe in the right of people to practise any belief they like. The only thing I find a little difficult to get my head round are the posts where people quote the Bible and then refer to the quotes as "data" or "fact". Would anyone here call the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (700 years later than the Birth of Christ) fact? Would anybody think Mrs Beeton's Book of Household Management (19th Century) gives the best advice? Did Cortez write factual letters about Montezuma back to King Phillip in the 16th Century?

Think of all the falsehoods, embellishments and sometimes well-intended untruths in these, and then please tell me the Bible contains "data" and "facts". It does not, it contains word of mouth stories, inventions, and quite probably some historical truth as well.
 
But we, progfans, will never know. Because we weren't there at the time.
It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough.
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