The Atheist - Agnostic - Non religious thread - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Negoba

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 16:27

Rob understands that all too well.

You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 16:29

^ you have the strange talent of writing posts that add *nothing* to the discussion.

Negoba

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 16:53

The point was that if you thought Rob didn't understand those things, you haven't been paying attention.

You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 16:59

^ yet he objected when I described "those things".

Epignosis

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 17:05

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ I wonder if you realize how very biased you actually are about the bible. Also, you seem to have a very rose tinted view of old middle-eastern cultures. Newsflash for you: Yes, they really raped, pillaged, murdered much more often than in our modern, civilized culture. If they wrote "kill" back then, they meant "kill" ... end of story.

Again with the generalizations. Who are they Mike?

By that logic...I could say some awful things about Germans.

https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 17:11

^ and you would be right.

jampa17

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 17:42

@Epignosis: I read that you needed some Catholic inside about something, I get lost a little cause I didn't read the whole thing... can you tell me what is your doubt about, and I gladly would give you an answer if I might... I guess I can... so... tell... what is the doubt about...???

Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 17:49

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Whatever "escaping a tangent" means ... I call you ignorant if you refuse to acknowledge obvious evidence. Not more, not less.

In first place, refusing to acknowledge is not being ignorant, you can call it stubbornness or whatever, but never ignorant. Ignorance is the lack of knowledge, if you know something (I read a lot of Dawkins material) but I refuse to agree with his position, is a contradiction with the word ignorant.

BTW: The evidence is only obvious to you and to some persons who believe Dawkins is the Messiah of the disbelief, he has a lot of detractors, even among Atheists.

EDIT: Read this excellent article about Dawkins: http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2008/08/dawkins-evangelical-science it's impressive how similar opinions Mr. Packman and I have about the latest Dawkins works.

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

.You're entitled to your opinion. Leaving child molestation aside for a moment, I think that forcing a religion onto a child is something that I disagree with. Make of that whatever you will.

Bravo Mike, lets leave aside what is uncomfortable to your position

I wonder....If I had said "Atheists are worst than child molesters because (whatever reason I gave)...What would had happened?

By this point we would have ten pages calling me bigot, I would had been reported to the Administrators for being anti freedom of belief and would had been compared with a Nazi.

But if Mr. Dawkins says it, is ok....Again, very comfortable position.

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

You're completely deluded. Dawkins recommends to let your child decide whether it wants to follow a particular religion or not. Of course Atheists might lean towards recommending Atheism, there can be no doubt about that. But remember the key difference between Atheism and Religion: Atheism relies on skepticism, Religion relies on dogma. Once again, you're entitled to your own opinion, but in my opinion it is better to teach skepticism than dogmatism.

Am I deluted? Or you don't want to understand what Dawkins said:

Richatd Dawkins wrote:

Nicholas Humphrey. It was originally delivered as a lecture in aid of Amnesty International, and has now been reissued as a chapter of his book, The Mind Made Flesh, just published by Oxford University Press. It is also available on the worldwide web and I strongly recommend it. Humphrey argues that, in the same way as Amnesty works tirelessly to free political prisoners the world over, we should work to free the children of the world from the religions which, with parental approval, damage minds too young to understand what is happening to them. He is right, and the same lesson should inform our discussions of the current pedophile brouhaha. Priestly groping of child bodies is disgusting. But it may be less harmful in the long run than priestly subversion of child minds.

http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,118,Religions-Real-Child-Abuse,Richard-Dawkins,page2

Am I the one who refuses to acknowledge, Or don't you want to accept what Dawkins said?

He said they should work to free children of religion despite the parental approval, and compares parents who teach religion to their kids with countries that have political prissoners.

This is not a recommendation, this is a dogma.

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

I know perfectly well that many religious people will not listen to people like Dawkins ... I guess that simply can't be helped. This is also why I doubt that we'll see a "Atheist revolution" ... it's a gradual change, and it's happening right now (and has been happening for centuries).

Great change, USA is filled with more fundamentalists bigots than ever, and that is caused because religion is attacked as a pest and people leave intelligent and centred positions for fanatics in the line of Falwell and Bob Jones.

Thanks for that .

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Come on, other people in this forum are criticized for posting in UPPER CASE ALL THE TIME, it's about time that somone critizised for your screaming and shouting

Criticizing uper case ALL THE TIME (Something I don't do, but seems you also refuse to see that only some lines are highlighted), is very different to calling a person that reinforces part of his argument with bold and higher case a fanatic, that's (to use soft words), absurd.

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Compared to the dark ages - of course. Wink

Nice argument Mike, when you read some of the Vatican II conclusions, call me

When you discover that Vatican II recommends tolerance with other religions and even those who don't believe, you will notice the difference.

Live and let live.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 05 2009 at 18:30

jampa17

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 18:05

^ There's a term called "Ecumenism" in which the different religions discuss and try to understand each other... it was impulsed by the Catholic Church after the II Vatican Concilie, and there's plenty of work about it... sorry... I only have information in spanish and particulary from the Catholic point of view but is not online... maybe I search for some and let you know... but the fact is that the Catholic, Ortodox, Evangelist and Jewish have been in talks for almost 30 years to now, and the tolerance is more evident, especially because we all believe in the same God, the same that speaks with Abraham... so, there's a lot of more activity than the predjuices that Progfreak is talking about... ok...??? Search for that word and maybe you find some news as well...

Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.

The T

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 18:13

Poor Mike surrounded by believers who want to throw him into the fire

Cheer up Mike! It will not hPpen in our lifetime, so just live the time that it is yours to live. But rest assured that the future will only increase awareness and skepticism and one day the world may be religion-free. At least free of the kind of religions as there understood today.

But who knows? As much as I consider most religious beliefs a delusion, i can only foresee an even worse scenario when man will have only one god: himself. The era of absolute individualism seems to be the only one that could replace current theism. You can see it everywhere. The Me ( not the Us) will replace the He. And it might actually be only for the worse.

Yes, I don't hold high hopes for the future of our stupid species...

Negoba

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 18:19

FWIW, I attend the Ethical Society, completely non-theist "religion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_Culture

You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.

Epignosis

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 18:53

The T wrote:

Poor Mike surrounded by believers who want to throw him into the fire

Wait a minute...Satan doesn't exist, remember? You're done for, little man! Wink

Hope you're doing well Teo. BTW...I look at your DT picture often close up just because I've never met real rock stars.

Closest I've come is the lead singer to The Marshall Tucker Band trying to get me (16 at the time) drunk. LOL

True story.

Their lead guitarist was old but cool as hell.

https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

UndercoverBoy View Drop Down

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 19:44

The T wrote:

Poor Mike surrounded by believers who want to throw him into the fire

But isn't that what Satanism is, worshipping the God of yourself?

Any Colour You Like View Drop Down

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 19:55

gottagetintogetout wrote:

The T wrote:

Poor Mike surrounded by believers who want to throw him into the fire

But isn't that what Satanism is, worshipping the God of yourself?

No, that is what is called rational individualism. My actions are based around the experiences and environment that surround me as a biological being. I do not worship myself, but in a sense I exist in my own conciousness beyond extraneous influences such as a deity. Therefore, decisions I make are based wholy around my concious thought and developed knowledge. Anyway, people who worship themselves are (narcissistic) and misguided. Tongue

Satanism is the worship and act of beleiving in Satan, and has little to do with rational self-conciousness.

Edited by Any Colour You Like - December 05 2009 at 19:57

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 19:58

Satanism is actually Theism ... in order to be a Satanist, you have to first believe in the Christian God. Atheists can't be Satanists, since they don't think that there's any of those superstitious characters.

UndercoverBoy View Drop Down

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 19:59

That's not what I have heard. Satanists don't really worship Satan, they worship themselves. The occult imagery they usually associate themselves with is usually just to scare off religious people.

Epignosis

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 20:00

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Satanism is actually Theism ... in order to be a Satanist, you have to first believe in the Christian God. Atheists can't be Satanists, since they don't think that there's any of those superstitious characters.

Okay...(never thought I'd be saying this but)...you don't know the Christian Bible anymore than you know The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey.

https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 20:01

Well, atheists certainly neither do any worshiping, nor do they believe in the occult.

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 20:04

Epignosis wrote:

Okay...(never thought I'd be saying this but)...you don't know the Christian Bible anymore than you know The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey.

I think you're right there - I just looked it up on Wikipedia. Nevertheless, my guess is that the label "Satanism" was coined by the Christian church.

Epignosis

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Posted: December 05 2009 at 20:06

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Well, atheists certainly neither do any worshiping, nor do they believe in the occult.

LaVey promotes self-worship using the imagery of satanic worship. Many atheists worship themselves, do they not?

https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays