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Syzygy 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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 Posted: December 03 2009 at 13:31 |
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They certainly exist on Kobaia and Planet Gong.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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mystic fred
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
Status: Offline
Points: 4252
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 13:47 |
if there are no aliens what the hell was this...? 
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 Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 14:04 |
 chopper wrote:
That accepted (although didn't Einstein propose the theory of wormholes) there is no way anyone can say that with 100% degree of certainty.
Especially after watching Jedward on the X-Factor. |
Wormholes are a possibility but there would be no way to stabilize the energy o maintain them.
Dean pretty much answered for me, but I'll just add that our sphere of contact since we began broadcasting radio waves, which would be the easiest way for an alien civilization to detect us, is something like 62 light years. That is hardly anything.
WIthout that how would an alien civilization have even discovered our planet was worth visiting? Why would they even be jumping through wormholes to get here? The time scales just don't add up.
When you consider that the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light, in fact even some galaxies we can see right now are moving away from us faster than the speed of light, much of the universe is actually out of our reach. We will never be able to even observe much of the universe until the expansion slows let alone travel to it.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 14:50 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Dean pretty much answered for me, but I'll just add that our sphere of contact since we began broadcasting radio waves, which would be the easiest way for an alien civilization to detect us, is something like 62 light years. That is hardly anything.
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Just to expand on that for a moment... 62 light years means that anything in a sphere of radius 62 light years can detect us. The Milky Way Galaxy is 100,000 light years in diameter and 1,000 light years thick (in the middle) - assuming it was a perfect cylinder (which it isn't) our radio waves have reached 0.0001152% of the volume of the Galaxy - since we live out in the galactic suburbs on the inner rim of the Orion spiral arm where it's considerably thinner than 1,000 light years that percentage is probably a magnitude or two higher, but still pretty small. However, on the bright-side, the density of stars where we are is roughly 0.000424 stars per cubic light year - which means our radio signals could have reached 380 or so stars  (out of 400,000,000,000 or 0.000000096% of the stars in the Galaxy) |
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What?
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 14:54 |
At the same time, there is a very long time span over which potential radio waves from no so distant past civilizations could have found there way here.
Excepting of course that such culture only did so for a short amount of time whose arrival doesn't correspond with now.
A) how does the universe expand faster than c?
B) if it does, how does an signal get to us from that edge since the fast we can get light is at c?
Edited by Negoba - December 03 2009 at 14:59
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 15:12 |
A) I assume by this question you're asking how does something move faster than the speed of light and not what is the force driving this expansion.
A lot of people have trouble with this because it seems to violate special relativity. However, it doesn not because nothing is moving faster than the speed of light. Space itself is expanding . The usual example is glue a bunch of pennies to a balloon and slowly blow it up. The space itself expands while the pennies remain motionless on their section of space, the balloon.
Special relativity is not violated because speed refers to a movement through space. Also, no information can be transmitted because of this expansion, so no potential paradoxes arise.
B) I'm not sure what you mean by the edge exactly, but we are not receiving any information from objects very distant in the universe. We do receive information from the early state of the universe via the cosmic microwave background. However this is not reaching us from the distant universe, it's just leftover from the past.
Think of a rubber band. As you stretch the rubber band (an ideal rubber band that cannot break) it beginst o cover more space, but there's less of it in each region because as it stretches it gets thinner. You could stretch this at the speed of light for a long time and the rubber band would be present over a great expand, but would be barely detectable in any particular area. That's a good way to think of the CMB. Not as distant universes communicating to us.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 15:16 |
Ok I was thinking about red shifts from distant fast moving galaxies and such stuff I read along time ago...and I suppose if you could compute the mass of the universe and the rate of "thinning" you could come up with a figure for the expansion. Which would seem to be a calculation with lots of potential snags.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 15:55 |
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Now i'm oficially lost... especially about all Dean numbers he put in in so little space... jejeje...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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progkidjoel
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 02 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 19643
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 15:59 |
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Chances are there is alien life out there, so I'll go with the flow on this one... They probably exist but have never been here
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 16:09 |
Negoba wrote:
Ok I was thinking about red shifts from distant fast moving galaxies and such stuff I read along time ago...and I suppose if you could compute the mass of the universe and the rate of "thinning" you could come up with a figure for the expansion. Which would seem to be a calculation with lots of potential snags.
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Well some galaxies are moving away from us at the the speed of light, others are not. Basically the further two objects are from each other, the faster the relative velocity between them is. Thus very close objects are red shifted due to this expansion, but still visible.
Hubble found the rate of expansion by measuring red shifts. Read about Hubble's Law if you want to know more about that matter.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 16:29 |
Citizen Erased wrote:
p0mt3 wrote:
Citizen Erased wrote:
Aww. I'm the only "they don't exist" voter.
I'm normally quite open minded but I just tend to feel...meh, i dunno, cynical about it.
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After debating with you in the other thread and finding out exactly the type of stuff you believe in, I found this post to be hysterically funny. 
Sorry . . . had to . . .
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God. Aliens.
Yes, hysterically funny. We all know that they are the exact same, eh?
I'm actually completely open minded to the possibility of aliens existing. I don't personally believe they do but hey, could be wrong. If only many atheists were the same with God.
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The huge difference is that science points to the likelihood of life elsewhere on other planets. It does NOT point to the likelihood of anything biblical. The fact that you can believe with all your heart something that cannot be proven at all, yet remain skeptical of something far more likely, yes, I find that hysterical. Forgive me for being the level-headed one, here.
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 16:41 |
p0mt3 wrote:
Citizen Erased wrote:
p0mt3 wrote:
Citizen Erased wrote:
Aww. I'm the only "they don't exist" voter.
I'm normally quite open minded but I just tend to feel...meh, i dunno, cynical about it.
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After debating with you in the other thread and finding out exactly the type of stuff you believe in, I found this post to be hysterically funny.
Sorry . . . had to . . .
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God. Aliens.
Yes, hysterically funny. We all know that they are the exact same, eh?
I'm actually completely open minded to the possibility of aliens existing. I don't personally believe they do but hey, could be wrong. If only many atheists were the same with God.
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The huge difference is that science points to the likelihood of life elsewhere on other planets. It does NOT point to the likelihood of anything biblical. The fact that you can believe with all your heart something that cannot be proven at all, yet remain skeptical of something far more likely, yes, I find that hysterical. Forgive me for being the level-headed one, here.
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If you link together the fact of been believer and hysterical, is just your thought or your believe, it doesn't help to any of the discussion here... you are just evidencing that you can't understand the other point of view and that's it...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 16:48 |
jampa17 wrote:
p0mt3 wrote:
Citizen Erased wrote:
p0mt3 wrote:
Citizen Erased wrote:
Aww. I'm the only "they don't exist" voter.
I'm normally quite open minded but I just tend to feel...meh, i dunno, cynical about it.
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After debating with you in the other thread and finding out exactly the type of stuff you believe in, I found this post to be hysterically funny.
Sorry . . . had to . . .
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God. Aliens.
Yes, hysterically funny. We all know that they are the exact same, eh?
I'm actually completely open minded to the possibility of aliens existing. I don't personally believe they do but hey, could be wrong. If only many atheists were the same with God.
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The huge difference is that science points to the likelihood of life elsewhere on other planets. It does NOT point to the likelihood of anything biblical. The fact that you can believe with all your heart something that cannot be proven at all, yet remain skeptical of something far more likely, yes, I find that hysterical. Forgive me for being the level-headed one, here.
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If you link together the fact of been believer and hysterical, is just your thought or your believe, it doesn't help to any of the discussion here... you are just evidencing that you can't understand the other point of view and that's it... |
No, it's much simpler than that. I choose to believe in things that science can support or at least point to as likely. Anything else is not worth my time anymore. This really should be discussed in one of the atheist polls. This thread is getting way off track.
Edited by p0mt3 - December 03 2009 at 16:49
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 16:56 |
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As a site monitor you should report your own posts.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 16:59 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
As a site monitor you should report your own posts. |
Yeah, but then I'd have to admit that I'm a crappy poster, and my self-esteem would crumble, thus unleashing a powerful earthquake in the bahamas, cultimating in a massive rainstorm in Africa that may drown thousands, all because you wanted me to self-report something that doesn't even need reporting! 
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 17:12 |
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With the many worlds interpretation it will happen anyway so you may as well do it.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 17:15 |
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Each one of us is an individual universe....
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 17:27 |
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...well I do appear to be slowly expanding as time passes.
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What?
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camilleanne
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 29 2009
Location: Philippines
Status: Offline
Points: 403
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Posted: December 04 2009 at 00:45 |
I will believe if I'll see them and if there is a sure evidence but as long as there are no such evidence then for me it shows that there aren't. But I'll be amazed if there are aliens existing on earth it would be thrilling.. 
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The planet is fine the people are f**ked.
-George Carlin-
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halabalushindigus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 05 2009
Location: San Diego
Status: Offline
Points: 1438
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Posted: December 04 2009 at 01:30 |
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unless an alien lands in your back yard, you can't really say they exist.
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assume the power 1586/14.3
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Do You Believe in Aliens?
