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Kestrel 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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 Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:42 |
 Negoba wrote:
Kestrel wrote:
Huh? What faith do we put in science?
You have faith that this way of thinking will give you the answers to questions regarding the Universe. And it does, but not all of them. It is not designed to do so.
I don't have faith that science gives me answers. It does. Time and time again. And it gives answers that work.
It depends on what kind of questions you're asking about the universe - science takes care of the questions I wonder about, but I guess I don't really understand what you're trying to get at.
And any scientist would gladly tell you that our understanding of the Universe is quite limited - that's why there are still scientists!
Most real scientists will admit this for their particular field. Most of the atheists who put their faith in science are not scientists (interesting converse to a previous argument). Far too few admit to the limits of the scientific method in general.
Maybe. Maybe not. I haven't encountered any atheists that think this way.
I've seen this said so many times and I have yet to actually be shown these "other truths." Can you tell me some?
As long as you remain limited to a scientific / objectivist perspective, you will not be able to perceive these truths. But I'll try anyway. Religions work best in helping an individual, subject self find their place in the Universe. Much meditation regards fine tuning your perception, your ability to discern self from other. It's about direct experience of the here and now, trying to shed the filters of our expectations and teaching. In that way the goal is like science, except for the individual subject rather than the group objective point of view. And these are ancient traditions, some non-theist, which predate "New Age" by millenia.
Yep, that's just a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me.
And yes, some "New Atheists" do want to get rid of religion. Not sure what is wrong with that.
They do not understand what they're trying to get rid of. They deny the good and exaggerate the evil that is done in the name of religion, most often by persons who themselves had very little understanding of the religions whose banners they flew.
Even if that's the case, people like Dawkins or myself argue that how good or bad a religion is is ultimately irrelevant. What matters is if it's correct or not.
These "why" questions are mostly nonsensical if you want anything beyond evolution.
Of course they are. but I do want something beyond evolution. I work in a field completely dependent on science but where science leaves major gaps and will always. It forces me to think a little bigger.
Can't help you here.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:45 |
AmbianceMan wrote:
Sorry. Ken Ham is a complete and utter idiot. He's a young earth creationist and believes humans co-existed with dinosaurs. Find another person, please.
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Interesting story. He once took a rock that had been created in 3 hours by a recent volcano to scientists to date it. They came back with something like 10,000,000 years. Everything you read about him is going to be skewed by the way. People hate this guy. That's probably why I decided to read some of his stuff. Seriously check out his answers book. It WILL be thought provoking.
By the way ^ I'm with the cheesemakers.... Trivia: what movie is that from? Easy one... |
You offer a Monty Python Pop quiz?
Here's my question -- how do "scientists" date rock?
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What?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:49 |
AmbianceMan wrote:
I was referring to the part where you said it's ok to cut off genials. |
You do know that he was referring to circumcision and not castration don't you. Good, just checking.
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What?
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Kestrel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:57 |
AmbianceMan wrote:
Sorry. Ken Ham is a complete and utter idiot. He's a young earth creationist and believes humans co-existed with dinosaurs. Find another person, please.
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Interesting story. He once took a rock that had been created in 3 hours by a recent volcano to scientists to date it. They came back with something like 10,000,000 years. Everything you read about him is going to be skewed by the way. People hate this guy. That's probably why I decided to read some of his stuff. Seriously check out his answers book. It WILL be thought provoking.
By the way ^ I'm with the cheesemakers.... Trivia: what movie is that from? Easy one... |
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/1999/11/05/dinosaurs-and-the-bible From Ken Ham:
| Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years. |
| So dinosaurs—all the different kinds—must have lived alongside of people after the Flood. |
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AmbianceMan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 113
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 02:57 |
Dean wrote:
AmbianceMan wrote:
I was referring to the part where you said it's ok to cut off genials. |
You do know that he was referring to circumcision and not castration don't you. Good, just checking. |
Ahhh...exaggeration, I should have known!
There is always room for a Monty Python/Life of Brian pop quiz, especially in this thread.
Here's a good article by K. Ham on carbon dating in general.
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AmbianceMan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 113
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 03:00 |
| Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years. |
| So dinosaurs—all the different kinds—must have lived alongside of people after the Flood. |
Yeah it's pretty crazy right! Can't disagree with you there. If you didn't have some kind of "What the hell?" reaction to those quotes then you aren't breathing.
Edited by AmbianceMan - December 03 2009 at 03:00
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 04:15 |
AmbianceMan wrote:
I was referring to the part where you said it's ok to cut off genials. |
Oh, I never said it was. God did, though: Genesis 17:9-10: "And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised."
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 08:25 |
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Lucky I'm Catholic... we don't cut off nothing of our bodies... Give me sometime... I have to read another two pages of answers to know what I miss...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 08:28 |
Kestrel wrote:
Negoba wrote:
Kestrel wrote:
Huh? What faith do we put in science?
You have faith that this way of thinking will give you the answers to questions regarding the Universe. And it does, but not all of them. It is not designed to do so.
I don't have faith that science gives me answers. It does. Time and time again. And it gives answers that work.
It depends on what kind of questions you're asking about the universe - science takes care of the questions I wonder about, but I guess I don't really understand what you're trying to get at.
And any scientist would gladly tell you that our understanding of the Universe is quite limited - that's why there are still scientists!
Most real scientists will admit this for their particular field. Most of the atheists who put their faith in science are not scientists (interesting converse to a previous argument). Far too few admit to the limits of the scientific method in general.
Maybe. Maybe not. I haven't encountered any atheists that think this way.
I've seen this said so many times and I have yet to actually be shown these "other truths." Can you tell me some?
As long as you remain limited to a scientific / objectivist perspective, you will not be able to perceive these truths. But I'll try anyway. Religions work best in helping an individual, subject self find their place in the Universe. Much meditation regards fine tuning your perception, your ability to discern self from other. It's about direct experience of the here and now, trying to shed the filters of our expectations and teaching. In that way the goal is like science, except for the individual subject rather than the group objective point of view. And these are ancient traditions, some non-theist, which predate "New Age" by millenia.
Yep, that's just a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me.
And yes, some "New Atheists" do want to get rid of religion. Not sure what is wrong with that.
They do not understand what they're trying to get rid of. They deny the good and exaggerate the evil that is done in the name of religion, most often by persons who themselves had very little understanding of the religions whose banners they flew.
Even if that's the case, people like Dawkins or myself argue that how good or bad a religion is is ultimately irrelevant. What matters is if it's correct or not.
These "why" questions are mostly nonsensical if you want anything beyond evolution.
Of course they are. but I do want something beyond evolution. I work in a field completely dependent on science but where science leaves major gaps and will always. It forces me to think a little bigger.
Can't help you here.
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You're intelligent and consistent, but you're choosing a 2-dimensional outlook on a 3 (or more) dimensional existence. But you've stated you don't want to venture outside those questions, which is fine. It's also a shame since you're clearly intelligent enough to handle more.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 08:29 |
Dean wrote:
AmbianceMan wrote:
Sorry. Ken Ham is a complete and utter idiot. He's a young earth creationist and believes humans co-existed with dinosaurs. Find another person, please.
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Interesting story. He once took a rock that had been created in 3 hours by a recent volcano to scientists to date it. They came back with something like 10,000,000 years. Everything you read about him is going to be skewed by the way. People hate this guy. That's probably why I decided to read some of his stuff. Seriously check out his answers book. It WILL be thought provoking.
By the way ^ I'm with the cheesemakers.... Trivia: what movie is that from? Easy one... |
You offer a Monty Python Pop quiz?
Here's my question -- how do "scientists" date rock? |
This is going to end badly....
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 09:01 |
Negoba wrote:
Dean wrote:
AmbianceMan wrote:
Sorry. Ken Ham is a complete and utter idiot. He's a young earth creationist and believes humans co-existed with dinosaurs. Find another person, please.
|
Interesting story. He once took a rock that had been created in 3 hours by a recent volcano to scientists to date it. They came back with something like 10,000,000 years. Everything you read about him is going to be skewed by the way. People hate this guy. That's probably why I decided to read some of his stuff. Seriously check out his answers book. It WILL be thought provoking.
By the way ^ I'm with the cheesemakers.... Trivia: what movie is that from? Easy one... |
You offer a Monty Python Pop quiz?
Here's my question -- how do "scientists" date rock? |
This is going to end badly.... |
No, I was shown a nice little missive on Carbon dating, I have no further questions.
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What?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 09:04 |
jampa17 wrote:
Lucky I'm Catholic... we don't cut off nothing of our bodies... Give me sometime... I have to read another two pages of answers to know what I miss... |
Now, there's the thing - I expect that is the result of selective interpretation. My interpretation is that Paul (& Barnabas?) was asked whether gentiles who converted to judeo-christianity should be circumcised, and he decided that it would be unfair to expect adults to undergo that and probably thought it would scare off potential converts, so he said no - but he did say they should only eat kosher food (he later changed his mind on that too). He never said anything about the children and offspring born to converted gentiles and their descendants.
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What?
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 09:16 |
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I'm experienced in such procedures is anyone is in need...
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 09:26 |
Dean wrote:
jampa17 wrote:
Lucky I'm Catholic... we don't cut off nothing of our bodies... Give me sometime... I have to read another two pages of answers to know what I miss... |
Now, there's the thing - I expect that is the result of selective interpretation. My interpretation is that Paul (& Barnabas?) was asked whether gentiles who converted to judeo-christianity should be circumcised, and he decided that it would be unfair to expect adults to undergo that and probably thought it would scare off potential converts, so he said no - but he did say they should only eat kosher food (he later changed his mind on that too). He never said anything about the children and offspring born to converted gentiles and their descendants. |
That is somewhat accurate, but if you don't mind a little clarification:
Gentiles were only expected to be circumsized and keep kosher if they expected to join Hebrew society and live among them. The major controversy at the church of Galatia (and to a lesser extent, the church at Rome) was on whether or not Gentile proselytes must be required to keep the law of the Hebrew covenant (the God of Jesus is after all, the God of the Hebrews) in ordered to be saved. This, of course, isn't the case since only belief in Christ and repentance of sin is required.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 09:27 |
Negoba wrote:
I'm experienced in such procedures is anyone is in need... |
Thanks, but we had a girl this time around, and my captain lost his cap a very long time ago. 
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 09:37 |
Thank You Rob... this kind of explanation are the ones I cannot do in proper english... thanks... BTW, My captain still have his cape...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 09:40 |
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Everyone does a quick cape and cap check....
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 09:43 |
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Mike is going to be awful pissed to find that dicks have derailed his thread.
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 09:59 |
Epignosis wrote:
Mike is going to be awful pissed to find that dicks have derailed his thread. |
Maybe he gets glad... he was already pissed off so...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: December 03 2009 at 10:19 |
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I've never been "pissed off" about any of the posts in these threads ... considering the topic, I actually think the discussion is quite civil. And as far as the off topic trends are concerned ... well, it is page 15. Most opinions have been covered, and some people are going in circles. That's to be expected, and I'm even enoying it to some extent.
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Evolution vs. Creationism