America's new healthcare bill has passed!

MovingPictures07 wrote: p0mt3 wrote: MovingPictures07 wrote:  . . . After the excessive instability in Germany for decades, look at what happened when the Nazis came into power. All it takes is a susceptible base of people desperately looking for some sort of direction for disaster . . . Alex, you're an intelligent person. Please do not bring up Nazis when debating healthcare. I know you weren't addressing that directly, but the problem is, every nutcase on the right jumps straight to Nazi Germany when talking about Obama's presidency and his healthcare bill. It possibly makes you appear to be influenced by those guys when you tread the same subject manner. Just a thought. Still friends? I was not discussing anything about health care in that at all; it was simply a factual statement of the positioning of government and the relationship between the government and its citizens. I would never compare Obama to Hitler; that's absurd. And I agree that when people make ridiculous arguments like that which are not meant to be exaggerated then it's absolutely ridiculous. You simply are blinded by hearing two things in the same general area (our government and nazis) that if you see them together even in a completely unrelated matter, it gets your gut reaction to give the same response as it would in other situations. I don't blame you. Doesn't make it a right assumption.

I was simply pointing out how other may choose to take your statement. I do believe that I myself stated that I knew you weren't making the same comparison.

p0mt3 wrote:  . . . I know you weren't addressing that directly . . .

Yeah. See, it's right there.

p0mt3 wrote: MovingPictures07 wrote: p0mt3 wrote: MovingPictures07 wrote:  . . . After the excessive instability in Germany for decades, look at what happened when the Nazis came into power. All it takes is a susceptible base of people desperately looking for some sort of direction for disaster . . . Alex, you're an intelligent person. Please do not bring up Nazis when debating healthcare. I know you weren't addressing that directly, but the problem is, every nutcase on the right jumps straight to Nazi Germany when talking about Obama's presidency and his healthcare bill. It possibly makes you appear to be influenced by those guys when you tread the same subject manner. Just a thought. Still friends? I was not discussing anything about health care in that at all; it was simply a factual statement of the positioning of government and the relationship between the government and its citizens. I would never compare Obama to Hitler; that's absurd. And I agree that when people make ridiculous arguments like that which are not meant to be exaggerated then it's absolutely ridiculous. You simply are blinded by hearing two things in the same general area (our government and nazis) that if you see them together even in a completely unrelated matter, it gets your gut reaction to give the same response as it would in other situations. I don't blame you. Doesn't make it a right assumption. I was simply pointing out how other may choose to take your statement. I do believe that I myself stated that I knew you weren't making the same comparison. p0mt3 wrote:  . . . I know you weren't addressing that directly . . . Yeah. See, it's right there.

I know; I was pulling your chain and simultaneously making a point to anyone else who may think that.

And to answer your question: No matter how much we may disagree on anything, I'd still be your friend.

toroddfuglesteg wrote: As a European with a different concept of the phrase "health care" than you highly esteemed Americans here; please explain this to me: I break a wrist in 2001 and a rib in 2006. My insurance company pays for the health treatment. I don't get any further health insurance because I am not a profitable asset for the insurance company. I have just broken my leg. Is it fair that I do not get this leg sorted out in a hospital ?  As we know with cancer, it may come and go.  I got cancer in 1998 and got it sorted out. It returns in 2004 and I still get it sorted out due to paying a much higher rate for my health insurance. When it returns tomorrow, I will not get hospital treatment because I am not profitable for the insurance companies. Is that right ? Btw, I have five children and a wife. Please clear this up for me because there was no place on Mayflower for me.  Please note: I used these as examples who does not represent me at all.

As a student still in college working on grabbing his degree in Accounting, I've only just recently begun to be exposed to all the exact details and conditions of many of the complications in our insurance and health care standardized system for employers-employees.

I believe I don't have enough direct experience or knowledge on this to be able to answer the question well enough for you; I'll pass it along to one of the older members in here who will most likely be of more help.

Insurance in this country is practically the equivalent of getting raped. (I just don't think that this particular health care bill or making our system entirely public immediately is the right thing to do to solve it either).

I will never understand the American fear of government-controlled healthcare.  Of course the government is not infallible, and often screws things up, but the idea that people will not have control of their healthcare is a ridiculous one, because under the current system Americans do not have control over their healthcare.  That control is currently in the hands of large for-profit companies that don't care one bit whether grandma lives or dies and would rather her die than their profit margin be lower.  Why some people would prefer to put their faith in heartless corporations that will withhold healthcare from you to boost their profits is beyond me.   Americans trust of big business over government has always baffled me.

crimhead wrote: The Doctor wrote: I will never understand the American fear of government-controlled healthcare.  Of course the government is not infallible, and often screws things up, but the idea that people will not have control of their healthcare is a ridiculous one, because under the current system Americans do not have control over their healthcare.  That control is currently in the hands of large for-profit companies that don't care one bit whether grandma lives or dies and would rather her die than their profit margin be lower.  Why some people would prefer to put their faith in heartless corporations that will withhold healthcare from you to boost their profits is beyond me.   Americans trust of big business over government has always baffled me. Hey,hey,hey now! It almost sounds like that large for profit company is a death panel if it wants grandma to die. Does Sarah Palin know about this?

Don't be such a tool. (And I mean that in the most respectful yet blunt way possible)

This thread was progressing actually in a very civilized respectful argument, and you come in here and make it politicized as you so often do whilst contributing nothing to the discussion.

^ It's a gift, Alex. 

I think that one of the issues that many in our country have is the idea of the government giving things for "free" to some members of our society that other members of our society have to work so hard for to have themselves.  It is an issue that I have from time to time as well.  It is kind of the welfare issue all over again.  I've worked hard my entire life.  I worked my ass off in elementary school, in junior high school, and in high school in order to get high enough grades so that I could get into a good college.  I then worked my ass off in college so that I could get high enough grades so that I could get a good job once I got out of college.  I then went on to another college so that I could get a Masters Degree so that I could get a better job and make more money.  While I am busy working my ass off to do all of this stuff and thus "earn" the salary that I make so that I can afford to buy my house, buy my car, buy some nice clothes, pay for health insurance, etc...  there are others in society who spent this same time partying, getting drunk, getting laid, getting high, getting pregnant, and basically not getting educated, who are now delegated to working low paying jobs without benefits and trying to raise a family of 4 kids from 4 different fathers or mothers.  Why should I feel sorry for them?  Why should my hard work go into paying taxes so that the government can then give my hard earned money to them to reward them for being a slacker?  I think that as a general rule we as a society are OK with the government helping out those people who put forth the same type of effort, but through no or little fault of their own they find themselves without a job or without insurance.  We also don't have a problem with the government helping out people with mental or physical handicaps who also need this help.  Our major number 1 problem is with the government helping out these slackers who don't deserve our help.  These people instead deserve their comeuppance for years of avoiding their responsibilities. 

And again to append my previous comment, since this is after all a rock and roll website where getting drunk, getting laid, getting high is a natural occurrence, where does this leave the starving artist? 

Atavachron wrote: Hercules wrote: Those right wing idiots in the States who claim we Brits don't like our National Health Service are liars. you got that right

The point may be perfectly valid.  Unfortunately the first four words are the kind of discourse that only contributes to the toxic atmosphere of US politics.  If we can't debate without calling the other side idiots, little of substance can be achieved. 

The Doctor wrote: I will never understand the American fear of government-controlled healthcare.  Of course the government is not infallible, and often screws things up, but the idea that people will not have control of their healthcare is a ridiculous one, because under the current system Americans do not have control over their healthcare.  yep-- not only that, but we are the government; this is the great American misunderstanding, that we are somehow seperate or disembodied from the Federal government, it's a problem mostly due to lack of understanding and education That control is currently in the hands of large for-profit companies that don't care one bit whether grandma lives or dies and would rather her die than their profit margin be lower.  Why some people would prefer to put their faith in heartless corporations that will withhold healthcare from you to boost their profits is beyond me.   Americans trust of big business over government has always baffled me.

yeah it's the idea of independence taken too far, that somehow a business is more part of the culture than the government, more "part of us" than the Feds