America's new healthcare bill has passed!

Welcome to the civilised world, America. Well done President Obama.

Those right wing idiots in the States who claim we Brits don't like our National Health Service are liars. Trouble is, the rich, selfish and uneducated believe what they want to hear.

The NHS is the best thing about Britain.

Hercules wrote: Welcome to the civilised world, America. Well done President Obama. Those right wing idiots in the States who claim we Brits don't like our National Health Service are liars. Trouble is, the rich, selfish and uneducated believe what they want to hear. The NHS is the best thing about Britain.

Yes, but I don't believe this will be the NHS.  Far from it. 

And again, there are idiots on both sides, not just the right. 

rushfan4 wrote: Finnforest wrote: Where did Alex claim to be an expert? Frankly, Alex is smarter than most people my age. (except when he disagrees with me) Yes, and I did acknowledge his intelligence in my post.  But he comes across in his arguments as though he quite thinks that his way and only his way is the right way.  Unfortunately, I am of the belief that his point of view is strongly skewed by the fear mongering ways of the extreme right wing prognosticators such as Limbaugh and Beck.  These 2 men have gotten very, very rich spewing a bunch of BS that a certain branch of our country like to hear and  believe.  The truth lies somewhere far more moderate than that point of view.  I don't know what that "truth" is however.

I'm definitely not rich; my father busts his ass every day in carpentry and construction to support us and we hardly live anything that I would say is lavish. I've never been on a family vacation in my entire life.

Additionally, I think Limbaugh really is an idiot over half of the time, and I don't really know that much about Beck. I simply observe everything around me and make decisions like any other individual who doesn't have their opinions fed to them through the media or any other one particular person.

I never said I was an expert either; but I do think that if I've read up quite a bit on a subject and I feel comfortable enough in my assessment of it, then I'm qualified enough to express an opinion on it. If I hadn't spent over two hours reading some of the material in the Baucus Health Bill at the very minimum, I would not have posted.

I suspect (Although others know better) that it is not a way for Congress to express more power over the common man.  However, it is simply a way of hoisting Obama by his own petard (Scuse spelling) or the Right are giving him enough rope.  Then when it fails the Right can use this as an argument for never allowing any real national health system.  And as a way of getting rid!

Finnforest wrote: Hercules wrote: Welcome to the civilised world, America. Well done President Obama. Those right wing idiots in the States who claim we Brits don't like our National Health Service are liars. Trouble is, the rich, selfish and uneducated believe what they want to hear. The NHS is the best thing about Britain. Yes, but I don't believe this will be the NHS.  Far from it.  And again, there are idiots on both sides, not just the right.

It seems that most people fit into this category; it's a shame. It's why you should never affiliate yourself with one "side" or organization or label, as you lose some of your ability to make your own informed decisions--not just what some other group or person spews as truth.

I actually encourage people who hardly know anything about their prospective Presidential candidates to stay home on Election Day. If you don't know what you're doing with your powerful vote, then don't use it. It's still a right for everyone, but I find that people who don't take the time to form their own opinions based off of information and values held by each candidate and issue are much more apt to make a decision that is bad for them and for everyone else.

After the excessive instability in Germany for decades, look at what happened when the Nazis came into power. All it takes is a susceptible base of people desperately looking for some sort of direction for disaster.

There is no right side, and no one is right 100% of the time. That's absurd. There's simply billions of individual people, who are all unique, and should be treated each as a unique individual. Everyone is not the same; they should not be given the same and should not be treated in the same exact way as everyone else. By limiting unhealthy and dysfunctional control of institutions over people (whether it be government, a growing occult, or uncontrollable amounts of large monopolies, or anything else) and encouraging people to go out, take in information, and make informed and reasonable decisions with the least amount of bias or consideration for any particular faction of society---then you will secure a much higher chance for individuals to thrive and for innovation to boom.

American taxpayers do not deserve the rape that will befall them with this bill, nor do they deserve many other current abominations in our governmental system. But the last thing we need to do is make a decision simply to be moving in a direction---because that will lead in the wrong direction for this nation. We should not look elsewhere to Europe, Canada, or anywhere else to see what works for them, because our national autonomy is obviously different. We need to look in our ourselves and ask ourselves what we really want. And I'm positive that the people of America do not want something as evil and twisted as the Baucus Health Bill, which appears to be good to the uninformed eye, but is easily just another added object for those "in power" to manipulate and control.

rushfan4 wrote: To make the anti-conservative argument.  To be a "true" capitalist society should we privatize our police force, our military, our fire department, our K-12 education system, our tax collection system, our national parks system, our judicial system, etc...  Every single item that our government "controls" is arguably because it is for the general good of our citizens.  Can you honestly say that our citizens would be better off if any of these government controlled areas of our society were privatized?  Why should health care be any different?  The government already controls medicare and medicaid (despite apparently 45% of our society not realizing that ) so they are already in the health care business.    Trust me, I am as paranoid as the next American when coming to the conclusion that our government is out to get me, and that it is incompetent and untrustworthy, but again the truth is somewhere more moderate.  I think that as a general rule our government means well, it just seems to have a higher proportion of bad eggs than the rest of society.  i.e., absolute power absolutely corrupts.

That's silly. I hardly think that if you asked anyone with any sort of sense that they would want total anarchy.

In order for a society to function and for its people and economy to thrive, there needs to be a solid judicial code, national defense, and a sense of order. Government in America was established for that reason, to avoid total anarchy, yet also to avoid totalitarian regimes where the common man suffers at the expense of other people. There's a healthy balance. No one sane that I know calls for the complete eradication of government, simply a radical analysis of it, as things have gotten out of control.

Absolute power does absolutely corrupt, and that is why government needs a minimal role in the affairs of its citizenry, yet an important one. It should be existent (not non-existent as which is what you described) but it should not step its bounds of what really control it--not that the government controls us.

We the people control the government, not the other way around. It's the foundations of what the United States were created on that advocate rightful use of the federal government (hell, George Washington and Alexander Hamiltons were Federalists, and they were all for a substantially established central governmental state), not ridiculousness. This plan is simply an absurd hybrid that will benefit no one, simply look good and force people to give into something which is not logical or beneficial for 98% of people.

Again that is an argument I don't understand.  I don't want the government "controlling" my health care decisions. No offense, but the government controlling your health care decisions is probably a better position for you, than some insurance company executive whose salary and bonus is directly tied into how many claims he/she can turn down. 

MovingPictures07 wrote:  . . . After the excessive instability in Germany for decades, look at what happened when the Nazis came into power. All it takes is a susceptible base of people desperately looking for some sort of direction for disaster . . .

Alex, you're an intelligent person. Please do not bring up Nazis when debating healthcare. I know you weren't addressing that directly, but the problem is, every nutcase on the right jumps straight to Nazi Germany when talking about Obama's presidency and his healthcare bill. It possibly makes you appear to be influenced by those guys when you tread the same subject manner.

Just a thought.

Still friends?

rushfan4 wrote: Again that is an argument I don't understand.  I don't want the government "controlling" my health care decisions. No offense, but the government controlling your health care decisions is probably a better position for you, than some insurance company executive whose salary and bonus is directly tied into how many claims he/she can turn down.

I agree with you completely. Though, it still doesn't change the fact that 'controlling' is exactly what the government does. You can put that word in quotations as often as you like; it doesn't make it any less true or important to think about.

Government control has the potential to either be very beneficial for the country, or very bad for the country, depending on the specific case. We'll just have to wait and see if healthcare is something they can succeed at or not.

p0mt3 wrote: MovingPictures07 wrote:  . . . After the excessive instability in Germany for decades, look at what happened when the Nazis came into power. All it takes is a susceptible base of people desperately looking for some sort of direction for disaster . . . Alex, you're an intelligent person. Please do not bring up Nazis when debating healthcare. I know you weren't addressing that directly, but the problem is, every nutcase on the right jumps straight to Nazi Germany when talking about Obama's presidency and his healthcare bill. It possibly makes you appear to be influenced by those guys when you tread the same subject manner. Just a thought. Still friends?

I was not discussing anything about health care in that at all; it was simply a factual statement of the positioning of government and the relationship between the government and its citizens.

I would never compare Obama to Hitler; that's absurd. And I agree that when people make ridiculous arguments like that which are not meant to be exaggerated then it's absolutely ridiculous.

You simply are blinded by hearing two things in the same general area (our government and nazis) that if you see them together even in a completely unrelated matter, it gets your gut reaction to give the same response as it would in other situations.

I don't blame you. Doesn't make it a right assumption.