This year's Helloween thread

They are NOT prog metal, and it's not worth it for us to evaluate them. I definitely do think they should be prog-related though. But keep in mind, my opinion means nothing. It's up to the admins to make that decision.

-Jeff

At least this suggestion is with some background research and awareness of older suggestions.

Keeper 1&2 - perfect, other albums - not so sure. Prog ? well, that's the question

Yep, Germany has trademark on that

As far as I can recall, they have not been considered by the Admin team for Prog related. I'll be happy to ask the Admin team for a decision if anyone is serious about doing the bio etc. required.

If we add Hellowen, we should add every Metal band with a keyboard and a couple long tracks, and unlike most Metal bands, have heard them ad nauseam, being that one of my closest friends is a diehard fan (BTW: The guy also an expert on Prog Metal and never made he connection).

1. They have been rejected at least twice
2. Have checked several Prog sites
1. Progressive Ears (Not included)
2. GEPR (Not included)
3. Proggnosis (Not included)
4. Progressor (Not included)
3. Mike who knows more about Prog Metal than most of us describes them as Power Metal with no Prog connection in other  threads.
4. Have checked Encyclopaedia Metallum who know more about Metal in general terms than 99.99% of us and describes them as Speed Metal (early), Power Metal (later)

Please, aren't we insisting too much when all the people who REALLY know about them makes no Prog connection?

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: If we add Hellowen, we should add every Metal band with a keyboard and a couple long tracks, and unlike most Metal bands, have heard them ad nauseam, being that one of my closest friends is a diehard fan (BTW: The guy also an expert on Prog Metal and never made he connection).   In addition  They have been rejected at least twice Have checked several Prog sites Progressive Ears (Not included) GEPR (Not included) Proggnosis (Not included) Progressor (Not included) Mike who knows more about Prog Metal than most of us describes them as Power Metal with no Prog connection in other  threads. Have checked Encyclopaedia Metallum who know more about Metal in general terms than 99.99% of us and describes them as Speed Metal (early), Power Metal (later) Please, aren't we insisting too much when all the people who REALLY know about them makes no Prog connection? Iván

Alright, there's definitely a few things wrong with this, and I'll explain what I think is wrong with each point:

1. They have been rejected at least twice. By who? Yes they've been rejected by the metal team, but didn't Bob state the admin team hasn't evaluated them?

2. So what? I'm not going to check those sites right now, but I doubt every band we have here is on those websites. I doubt Iron Maiden, Led Zeppelin, and Metallica are included on all of those sites as well. We shouldn't base our opinions on the opinions from other prog sites.

3. That's his opinion. It's up to the admin team to decide that.

4. What do you want Encyclopedia Metallium to categorize them as? Prog-Related Power Metal? They are not prog metal, so Encyclopedia Metalium would not categorize them like that! This is again, just somebody's opinion, and not where we should base our decisions. If I'm correct, you do believe Iron Maiden belongs here, and they're catogorized as Heavy Metal/NWOBHM. We shouldn't base our opinions around what other websites think in general.

If you don't belive Helloween belongs there, fine. But these points really aren't very valid points for making our decisions.

-Jeff

Helloween does have some albums reviewed at Sea of Tranquility, but although it is a venerable Prog site, I believe, it does not limit itself to so-called Prog.  To quote:

"Sea of Tranquility - The Web Destination for Progressive Music!Web zine with news and reviews of heavy metal, progressive metal, and progressive rock."

Here's a review anyway: http://www.seaoftranquility.org/reviews.php?op=showcontent&id=763

...the newest from Helloween delivers the hard-won reward promised by its title. Rarely have progressive, power metal and classic rock n' roll elements blended so nicely, showing all their facets while maintaining the force we look for in this music....

From what little I've heard: Somehow I think that there is more deserving music for Prog Related that had a bigger impact on Prog bands, and fits the general criteria better for the category (edit: I know this a not a valid statement against inclusion). And Pulsar's Halloween is in, anyway!  ;)



Edited by Logan - November 03 2009 at 15:45

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: J-Man wrote: Alright, there's definitely a few things wrong with this, and I'll explain what I think is wrong with each point: 1. They have been rejected at least twice. By who? Yes they've been rejected by the metal team, but didn't Bob state the admin team hasn't evaluated them?   In the two threads the tag Prog Related was mentioned, please read them. 2. So what? I'm not going to check those sites right now, but I doubt every band we have here is on those websites. I doubt Iron Maiden, Led Zeppelin, and Metallica are included on all of those sites as well. We shouldn't base our opinions on the opinions from other prog sites.   Lets see:   Iron Maiden is in: Progressor, and Progressive Ears. Led Zeppelin is in Proggnosis, Progressor and Progresiveears Metalica: is in Progressiveears and Proggnessor HELLOWEEN IS IN NONE   It's not definitive, but it's a sign, if a band from the 80's is not added top ANY Prog site, in almost three decades, most surely is not Prog or even related, some oif this sites have added Grabnd Funk Railroad as a prog Metal band....but not Helloween. 3. That's his opinion. It's up to the admin team to decide that.   They will decide, I'm only giving MY opinion. 4. What do you want Encyclopedia Metallium to categorize them as? Prog-Related Power Metal? They are not prog metal, so Encyclopedia Metalium would not categorize them like that! This is again, just somebody's opinion, and not where we should base our decisions. If I'm correct, you do believe Iron Maiden belongs here, and they're catogorized as Heavy Metal/NWOBHM. We shouldn't base our opinions around what other websites think in general.   If they had any Prog connection, believe me, the tag Prog Metal would be added.   And yes, we don't base our opinions in General music sites exclusively, I mentioned that no Prog site has them....But the opinion of a METAL site is valuable for Metal bands, Prog or not Prog. If you don't belive Helloween belongs there, fine. But these points really aren't very valid points for making our decisions.   This points are absolutely valid, they are used by all the teams in lesser or higher degree. The Administrators have created a category called Controversial bands. EASY LIVIN wrote: Controversial band additions Bands and artists will be considered potentially controversial if they: Are not generally listed by other prog sites* AND/OR They have been rejected in the past on the basis of their prog credentials OR Are flagged up by the team concerned as being potentially controversial OR Are flagged up by the admin team as controversial * The requirement is that at least 2 other sites dedicated to prog have identified the band/artists as being prog. New bands are excluded from this requirement. One a team has been identified as controvetial, we would recommend contacting the Admin team at this stage   Reaching a decision If a team of three or more members are unanimous in deciding that a controversial band should be added, this will be sufficient to go ahead with the addition. Note that while the team must have at least three members, all the team members must have voted yes. On behalf of The Admin Team (Angelo, Bob, Dean, Guigo, Jim, Jody, Tony) So, my arguments are valid, they have been mentioned and added vby the Administratotrs team.   Even though Prog Related don't follow this guidelines, all the alert lights are own: Rejected before No Prog site mentions them Specialized Metal sites describe them as non Prog They have been in the mnarket for almost three decades and not recognized as Prog. If it's yellow, has feathers, makes a quack sound and swims it's usually a duck. Iván

I still do (respectfully) disagree with a few points, Iván. Being on the markets for 3 decades and not being recognized as prog has nothing to do with their entrance into prog related. If we were talking about Helloween being added into Symphonic, Eclectic, Prog Metal, etc. this would be very relevant. But we're talking about prog related here. Led Zeppelin is not reconized as prog, nor is Iron Maiden, Metallica, or just about an other artist in Prog Related.

That draws back to my point about Encyclopedia Metallium's classification of Helloween. Helloween is NOT prog, so Encyclopedia Metallium should not site them that way. Their main focus is NOT progressive music, so they aren't going to mention prog-related or not on all of the bands. This pretty much shows lack of knowledge about how that website works, because if you look up ANY metal band classified as "pog-related" on our site, it will be classified as power metal, speed metal, thrash metal, etc. Not prog-related metal. If a band is not prog metal, they shouldn't be called that.

While I was not aware about the fact that we consider other website's opinions, this is only to determine "controversial" band additions, not determine the entire thing in general. And keep in mind, if Progressiveears and all the other websites thought this way, no bands would ever get added! One of these websites will add a band first, so why not us?

By the way, Wikipedia states some of their albums as prog rock or prog metal here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameleon_(album)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeper_of_the_Seven_Keys,_Pt._1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeper_of_the_Seven_Keys:_The_Legacy

If you don't think they belong here, fine. I'm not sure that I even do myself. But this isn't an irrelevant discussion at all.

-Jeff

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: J-Man wrote: Alright, there's definitely a few things wrong with this, and I'll explain what I think is wrong with each point: 1. They have been rejected at least twice. By who? Yes they've been rejected by the metal team, but didn't Bob state the admin team hasn't evaluated them?   In the two threads the tag Prog Related was mentioned, please read them.

They weren't rejected from the admin team in either of those topics. Some people were against it, but the admin team never said they rejected Helloween. People did object the idea, but they were not rejected.

-Jeff

J-Man wrote: I still do (respectfully) disagree with a few points, Iván. Being on the markets for 3 decades and not being recognized as prog has nothing to do with their entrance into prog related. If we were talking about Helloween being added into Symphonic, Eclectic, Prog Metal, etc. this would be very relevant. But we're talking about prog related here. Led Zeppelin is not reconized as prog, nor is Iron Maiden, Metallica, or just about an other artist in Prog Related.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 03 2009 at 20:36