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sealchan 
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 Topic: Buggles
Posted: October 08 2009 at 00:45 |
Are they not Prog Related?
I'm sure this must have been discussed before, if you would like to provide the link to the thread...
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Moogtron III
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 01:29 |
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I once opened a thread about The Buggles, but it got zero reactions, so don't be disappointed if you don't get many reactions yourself.
As much as I love The Buggles, I don't think if they qualify for prog related. If you look at the definition for prog related on PA, there are three demands, which have to be fulfilled all three in order to be called prog related:
1. Received clear musical influence from prog (which they did on the second album, not so much on the first album)
2. Widely accepted as having influenced prog (they fail on that point)
3. Mixing prog with mainstream (they did that, once again, on the second album)
So they fall short, especially on point 2. They are not prog related IMHO, but... I love their albums!
Edited by Moogtron III - October 08 2009 at 01:33
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Easy Livin
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 02:27 |
I guess you could argue they influenced prog becasue 2 of the band members joined Yes.
Interesting to hear their version of "Into the lens" from "Drama", called "I am a camera".
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Moogtron III
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 03:34 |
 Easy Livin wrote:
I guess you could argue they influenced prog becasue 2 of the band members joined Yes.
Interesting to hear their version of "Into the lens" from "Drama", called "I am a camera". |
Yes, after I posted my mail, that crossed my mind as well. The first Buggles album was a reason for Chris Squire to ask both members of The Buggles to join Yes, which resulted in a Yes album that is progressive, no doubt. And probably Yes-Drama influenced Trevor Horn to make a more progressive Buggles album, because the second Buggles album no doubt has quite some progressive elements. That is a good argument. So I'm inclined to suggest The Buggles for prog related after all. There has been a fertile progressive cross-fertilization between The Buggles and Yes. And yes, all "Into The Lens" fans should check out "I Am A Camera" from The Buggles, which is a wonderful version of the same song.
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chopper
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 07:04 |
Hmm, "Video killed the radio star" on a prog rock site?
I'm not sure if Squire asked Horn and Downes to join because of the Buggles album, or because he knew Horn was a big Yes fan.
Edited by chopper - October 08 2009 at 07:06
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Moogtron III
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 14:12 |
chopper wrote:
Hmm, "Video killed the radio star" on a prog rock site?
I'm not sure if Squire asked Horn and Downes to join because of the Buggles album, or because he knew Horn was a big Yes fan. |
It's not that easy. "Illegal Alien", "Love Is The Drug" and "Love Will Find A Way" are also on this fine prog site. And the Buggles made more than "Video Killed The Radio Star". The first Buggles album is quite poppy, no doubt, but the second album has more progressive moments, like in "Adventures In Modern Recording" and "Vermilion Sands" and "Inner City". But I must admit, overall Buggles is more pop than prog. Still, the Buggles and Yes influenced each other towards more prog, so officially the three demands for prog related are being met, I think.
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J-Man
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 19:43 |
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I actually do believe they are a prog related band, that meets the criteria. But I definitely wouldn't push it. They have a ton of exposure, and we usually try not to spend day after day trying to get "sort of" progressive bands here.
-Jeff
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 08 2009 at 20:08 |
Easy Livin wrote:
I guess you could argue they influenced prog becasue 2 of the band members joined Yes.
Interesting to hear their version of "Into the lens" from "Drama", called "I am a camera". |
I don't believe so Bob, The Buggles never influenced Prog, their two members left The Buggles and LATER joined Yes, but not as The Buggles, they did it as Trevor Horn and Geoff Downes.
Moogtron III wrote:
It's not that easy.
"Illegal Alien", "Love Is The Drug" and "Love Will Find A Way" are also on this fine prog site.
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Oh please, I heard this a lot.
- Genesis is not here for Illegal Alien, but for songs like The Musical Box or Supper's Ready
- Roxy Music is not here for Siren, most likely for their albums with Brian Eno.
- Yes is not here for "Love will Find a Way", but for songs like Close to he Edge or The Gates of Delirium.
The fact is that ProgArchives adds the whole discography, but The Buggles don't have a single Prog influential album,
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 08 2009 at 20:19
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Moogtron III
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Posted: October 09 2009 at 01:41 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
It's not that easy.
"Illegal Alien", "Love Is The Drug" and "Love Will Find A Way" are also on this fine prog site.
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Oh please, I heard this a lot.
- Genesis is not here for Illegal Alien, but for songs like The Musical Box or Supper's Ready
- Roxy Music is not here for Siren, most likely for their albums with Brian Eno.
- Yes is not here for "Love will Find a Way", but for songs like Close to he Edge or The Gates of Delirium.
Iván |
You're missing my point. I meant that The Buggles could be on PA despite Video Killed The Radio Star, just as Genesis is on PA despite Illegal Alien, Roxy Music is on PA despite Love Is The Drug etc. If The Buggles would be called prog related, it would be because of: 1. Them influencing Yes (Chris Squire; I'm not sure about the others). Indeed, the Buggles didn't join Yes, Iván, that is true, Geoff Downes and Trevor Horn did. Still, I think they joined because of the first Buggles album, which was their calling card and it impressed Squire. After Horn and Downes joined, Yes made an album which is IMHO slightly more progressive than it's predecessor. The question is of course: what is the influence of Horn and Downes in it? This we cannot tell for sure, but's it's still an interesting point. Horn and Downes joining Yes didn't make Yes more pop: Drama was a progressive album. 2. The progressive elements on the second Buggles album. Now why was the second album slightly more progressive than the first one? Maybe because of the experience Horn and Downes had in playing in Yes (maybe it's just Horn who added the progressive elements, because Downes left during the recording of the album). Still, once again, It's nothing more than a theory. I have to admit, though, that: 1. The progressive elements on the second Buggles album aren't overwhelming. We're talking about elements, nothing more. Even the second Buggles album is more pop than prog. 2. Also, the second album doesn't seem te be influential, this is true. Maybe the first one is (it got the attention of Chris Squire, but I'm sure the first album influenced more artists), but is it influential not for prog and not because of prog. 3. Further on, there is no wide acceptance for the inclusion of Buggles in prog related. So I think that they are no good candidates for prog related after all. I'm back at my initial point of view, and I won't support the motion to include the Buggles on prog related. As a fan I must say I'm sorry, but I have to be objective. Still, having left the path of prog related, it's still an interesting thing to wonder: now what exactly did Squire see in The Buggles, and why did the joining of Horn and Downes result in a Yes - album that seemed to be more progressive than Tormato? And why did The Buggles turn into a slightly more progressive act on the second album? The mutual cross-fertilization is still an interesting thing. Maybe, if anything, it has to do with Trevor Horn ripening as a producer, still more and more being withheld by the limitations of the 3 minute pop song. Also, Horn was an enormous Yes fan long before he joined the band. Probably The Buggles were amongst the few acts in the new wave - era where the musicians were prog fans, but in a changing musical atmosphere were playing pop to get commercial success, but still (at least in the case of Horn and Downes) with a latent progressive interest, which came out in some of their music from time to time.
Edited by Moogtron III - October 09 2009 at 04:21
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 09 2009 at 10:36 |
Moogtron III wrote:
You're missing my point. I meant that The Buggles could be on PA despite Video Killed The Radio Star, just as Genesis is on PA despite Illegal Alien, Roxy Music is on PA despite Love Is The Drug etc. |
No Moogtron, Genesis is not here despite Illegal Alien...Genesis is here because of Trespass, Nursery Cryme, Genesis Live, Foxtrot, SEBTP, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, A Trick of the il, W&W and Seconds Out, in other words 9 full complete Prog albums.
The later albums are here because Prog Archives adds the complete discography, If they would had released lets say,only Post Duke albums, they wouldn't be here, and I believe Invisible Touch has more Prog elements in The Brazilian than Buggles in all their career..
Buggles don't have a single Prog album, not even an influential Prog Related album..
Moogtron III wrote:
If The Buggles would be called prog related, it would be because of:
1. Them influencing Yes (Chris Squire; I'm not sure about the others). Indeed, the Buggles didn't join Yes, Iván, that is true, Geoff Downes and Trevor Horn did. Still, I think they joined because of the first Buggles album, which was their calling card and it impressed Squire. |
Impressing is not influencing.
Moogtron III wrote:
After Horn and Downes joined, Yes made an album which is IMHO slightly more progressive than it's predecessor. The question is of course: what is the influence of Horn and Downes in it? This we cannot tell for sure, but's it's still an interesting point. Horn and Downes joining Yes didn't make Yes more pop: Drama was a progressive album. |
The influence that Horn and Downes had in August 1980 as Yes members, has no relation with what THE BUGGLES did in before or after joining Yes.
Moogtron III wrote:
2. The progressive elements on the second Buggles album. Now why was the second album slightly more progressive than the first one? Maybe because of the experience Horn and Downes had in playing in Yes (maybe it's just Horn who added the progressive elements, because Downes left during the recording of the album). Still, once again, It's nothing more than a theory. |
Maybe, is not enough IMO.
Moogtron III wrote:
I have to admit, though, that:
1. The progressive elements on the second Buggles album aren't overwhelming. We're talking about elements, nothing more. Even the second Buggles album is more pop than prog. |
You hit the nail in the head....You are talking about some elements, maybe less than the ones you find in Bat out of Hell for example, this doesn't ,mean we wil add Meatloaf.
Moogtron III wrote:
I2. Also, the second album doesn't seem te be influential, this is true. Maybe the first one is (it got the attention of Chris Squire, but I'm sure the first album influenced more artists), but is it influential not for prog and not because of prog.. |
Chuck Berry influenced Yes...Not for Prog, but for Rock, this doesn't mean we will add Berry...Good point Moogtron.
Moogtron III wrote:
Further on, there is no wide acceptance for the inclusion of Buggles in prog related. |
Again you're right, the Prog Related definition has been changed to request three conditions, I didn't changed it, but agree with the decision.
Moogtron III wrote:
So I think that they are no good candidates for prog related after all. I'm back at my initial point of view, and I won't support the motion to include the Buggles on prog related. As a fan I must say I'm sorry, but I have to be objective. |
Agree with you there.
Moogtron III wrote:
Still, having left the path of prog related, it's still an interesting thing to wonder: now what exactly did Squire see in The Buggles, and why did the joining of Horn and Downes result in a Yes - album that seemed to be more progressive than Tormato? And why did The Buggles turn into a slightly more progressive act on the second album? The mutual cross-fertilization is still an interesting thing. Maybe, if anything, it has to do with Trevor Horn ripening as a producer, still more and more being withheld by the limitations of the 3 minute pop song. Also, Horn was an enormous Yes fan long before he joined the band. Probably The Buggles were amongst the few acts in the new wave - era where the musicians were prog fans, but in a changing musical atmosphere were playing pop to get commercial success, but still (at least in the case of Horn and Downes) with a latent progressive interest, which came out in some of their music from time to time.
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You have said it, their interior love for Prog wasn't expressed in their music which is some sort of Pop New Wave.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 10 2009 at 10:13
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chopper
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Posted: October 09 2009 at 14:33 |
Moogtron III wrote:
chopper wrote:
Hmm, "Video killed the radio star" on a prog rock site?
I'm not sure if Squire asked Horn and Downes to join because of the Buggles album, or because he knew Horn was a big Yes fan. |
It's not that easy.
"Illegal Alien", "Love Is The Drug" and "Love Will Find A Way" are also on this fine prog site.
And the Buggles made more than "Video Killed The Radio Star". The first Buggles album is quite poppy, no doubt, but the second album has more progressive moments, like in "Adventures In Modern Recording" and "Vermilion Sands" and "Inner City". But I must admit, overall Buggles is more pop than prog.
Still, the Buggles and Yes influenced each other towards more prog, so officially the three demands for prog related are being met, I think.
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I'm not saying VKTRS would prevent Buggles joining PA, but they must have sufficient other prog credentials which Genesis and Yes obviously have.
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Moogtron III
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Posted: October 10 2009 at 03:50 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
No Moogtron, Genesis is not here despite Illegal Alien...Genesis is here because of Trespass, Nursery Cryme, Genesis Live, Foxtrot, SEBTP, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, A Trick of the il, W&W and Seconds Out, in other words 9 full complete Prog albums.
The later albums are here because Prog Archives adds the complete discography, If they would hadreleased lets say,only POst Duke albums, they wouldn't vbe here, and I believe Invisible Touch jhas more Prog elements in The Brazilian than Buggles in all their career..
Buggles don't have a single Propg album, not even an influential Prog Related album.
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Of course, and I already admitted myself in my most recent post that The Buggles don't have a big prog legacy. But what I was trying to get across is that PA doesn't deny access to a band which has made some pop tracks, just as long as there is enough prog in their discography. The Buggles don't have that, I totally agree. I know you like The Brazilian, so I will spare you   , and keep enjoying it, but in my not always so humble opinion I think that The Brazilian is not very progressive. Strip it down to its bare bone and you find a quite simple melody, augmented with some nice playful percussion and traditional, but nicely sounding Tony Banks chords, and it stands in no comparison to many '70's Banks' intricate instrumental moments. But, I must admit, maybe the same can be said from a track that I absolutely love: Vermilion Sands by The Buggles. Take it face value (ear value) and one can hear tempo changes, different melodies, different moods, many different sound effects, but strip it down to it's bare bone and you can say it is a collage of musical fragments, put together by a studio wizard. I don't agree that there is no relation between Buggles music and Yes
music, I think there is some cross fertilization, in sounds, in melody
lines, in Buggles turning slightly more progressive and Yes being
better produced... But the bottom line is: we agree about The Buggles not being candidate for prog related, that's the most important thing. And yes, it's too bad Horn, Downes and many others went obviously for commercial success instead of artistic satisfaction.
Edited by Moogtron III - October 10 2009 at 03:57
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Moogtron III
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Posted: October 10 2009 at 03:52 |
chopper wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
chopper wrote:
Hmm, "Video killed the radio star" on a prog rock site?
I'm not sure if Squire asked Horn and Downes to join because of the Buggles album, or because he knew Horn was a big Yes fan. |
It's not that easy.
"Illegal Alien", "Love Is The Drug" and "Love Will Find A Way" are also on this fine prog site.
And the Buggles made more than "Video Killed The Radio Star". The first Buggles album is quite poppy, no doubt, but the second album has more progressive moments, like in "Adventures In Modern Recording" and "Vermilion Sands" and "Inner City". But I must admit, overall Buggles is more pop than prog.
Still, the Buggles and Yes influenced each other towards more prog, so officially the three demands for prog related are being met, I think.
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I'm not saying VKTRS would prevent Buggles joining PA, but they must have sufficient other prog credentials which Genesis and Yes obviously have.
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Yes, that's true, as I also admitted towards Iván. My point was that The Buggles do have some progressive traits, but I admit that there aren't many.Too little for inclusion in PA.
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Sean Trane
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Posted: October 10 2009 at 05:47 |
MMMMMhhhh!!!!....
I'm not warm at the idea of having The Buggles on PA
I see the Yes/Asia link....
but musically the duo had absolutely nothing prog.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Moogtron III
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Posted: October 10 2009 at 08:37 |
Sean Trane wrote:
MMMMMhhhh!!!!....
I'm not warm at the idea of having The Buggles on PA
I see the Yes/Asia link....
but musically the duo had absolutely nothing prog. |
Well, there is a consensus: Buggles don't qualify for prog related. I'm convinced, even a fan like me. Dura lex, sed lex Cetero censeo Buggli habendos elementos progressivos . Says Cato, no Moogtro the elder. Still, like Carthago, the place of Buggles in history is less glorious as they would have thought. And wished. They should have gone full prog after all.
Edited by Moogtron III - October 10 2009 at 08:45
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