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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2009 at 02:04
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:



The people who love music will usually buy the album after "stealing" it. If I like an album that I copy from a friend, I'll always buy it.


Sorry, but I don't think that this is generally true. More than five years ago I was into file sharing, too. Back then (2002, 2003) you could do it without any legal consequences, and I must have downloaded tons of stuff. It was a time when I (re-)discovered prog, so I would download tons of stuff. In retrospect I only purchased a small fraction of all those albums. It's not that I wouldn't want to purchase them ... but even though I have a fairly big budget for music (especially compared to those who live in poorer countries), I simply couldn't afford buying those albums. For example I had the *entire* Zappa discography, more than 100 albums.

One day I realized that what I was doing was wrong ... so I deleted all my downloaded files, and I haven't engaged in illegal downloading for more than five years now (no music, no movies, no software ... nothing).

My point is: I'm sure that many people who download illegally are doing it with the best intentions (buying stuff if they like it) but at the end of the day they will not buy everything they download and enjoy. That's a problem IMO, because it means that people are listening to the work of an artist, enjoying it, but not compensating the artist. The fair solution would be to use legal offerings to sample the artist's albums and then buying albums based on those samples. I know that people who are used to listen to whole albums in order to make the decision are cautious to trust samples ... but from my own experience you rarely get disappointed by an album compared to the myspace samples (for example).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2009 at 03:31
I compleetly aggree with Progfreak, 90+% of downloaded albums will never be purchased.
People in general are just too tempted bying another album, instead of the one they allready got.
 
 
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2009 at 06:20
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ I rather think that 30 years from now serious musicians will simply record their music and publish it themselves ... recording and publishing will cost next to nothing, and the musicians can simply offer the music on their websites and charge whatever they want, or ask for donations. Once you eliminate the *industry* from the equation, it doesn't look so hopeless anymore.


The problem is, with recording your own music, you gotta know how to do it. Yes, in 30 years technology will have changed, but the best gear will always be expensive, no matter what and that isn't an option for the struggling musician with working class/lower middle class day job.
It's not as easy as getting your 25 dollar heaphones, your cracked/pirated copy of Cubase and an amp and a mic and calling yourself an audio engineer.
Anyone and their dog can do that.
Production, mixing and mastering (and to an extent engineering) are just as much as an art form as the music itself and it's something many people take for granted. It's just as much part of the package as the music itself.
This is why we have dedicated producers, engineers, mixers engineers and mastering engineers, because they know what they're doing. In 30 years we will still need them because no matter how much technology will have evolved, it's no substitute for something with not JUST the gear, but the talent and knowledge.

If suddenly every band/artist decided "Let's do it at home where we have no room treatment, computer speakers, cracked copies of software and no idea how to actually do it/use the software and equipment" suddenly the job of producers, engineers, mixers engineers and mastering engineers goes out the window.
The result is suddenly the average production value level just plummet.
And to be honest, no a goddamn chance am I gonna be paying for products with sub par production jobs because joe average thinks he has the skills but the reality is his product sounds like a muddy, undefined mess.
So I honestly don't want to see the day all musicians record their music and call them commercial products happen.

Originally posted by moshkito<b><font size=2> moshkito wrote:

The entire industrialized world
is definitely  the throwaway culture ... and it it so clear and vivid in the top ten world from music to Hollywood ... to anything else.
 


Fixed.



Edited by Petrovsk Mizinski - October 02 2009 at 06:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2009 at 07:08
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:



Originally posted by kingfriso kingfriso wrote:

I only listen to vinyl nowadays, though I have a big download mp3 collection. Since I started playing vinyl I bigan to dispise the sound of digital music. There's just nothing in it for me.

One of the things I like about vinyl is that I mostly by second hand versions of records and therefore could see it as recycling! There's no production needed for my musical collecton's expension .

Downloading music is damaging the way people listen to music in my oppinion. On a vinyl record I never skip songs (it isn't easy) and I tend to listen to the whole record. The complete experience of an album is very important, missing out on one song can destroy that experience.
Nowadays I listen to music almost exclusively at the computer, through Winamp. Yet I also listen to whole albums most of the time. Listening to tracks instead of albums isn't something that was introduced with downloads ... back in the 1990s I did it all the time, that's what cassette recorders were made for!
Originally posted by kingfriso kingfriso wrote:


My last point. Digital art on your computer screen isn't art. It might sound a bit extreme... but I wouldn't make love to a photo of my girlfriend either, I want the real deal. There's enough fakeness in our pleasure culture, let rock music please stay real.
We discussed this above ... the pictures on the album sleeves are also merely reproductions of the originals ... fakes, if you want. I don't ... to me the medium is irrelevant. Regardless of whether the picture is printed on paper or displayed on a computer screen, the real art is the painting itself. It's the same with music ... you can enjoy the art by listening to a mp3 file as much as by listening to a vinyl disc ... as long as you manage to realize that the content is more important than the medium.


I will not manage to realize that the contaent is more important than the midium. Both are essential. Right now I'm searching for a vinyl copy of KC's Red. If some-one offered me a new disc without the coverwork I'd refuse. I would not get into the music that way. Music and art are a golden couple! The art gives direction to the music, while the music gives a way to look at the art.
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2009 at 07:24
^ What's so special about the cover art of KC - Red?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2009 at 07:46
The cover art of Red is meh anyway.

Anyway yeah, as much as I listen to MP3s, when I recently received a limited edition box set of the new album from Paramore, I had to admit it was kinda an emotional experience. The music is still the most important thing and I can live without the physical product, but the physical product is kinda cool too though.


Edited by Petrovsk Mizinski - October 02 2009 at 08:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2009 at 09:48
I'll be purchasing the new Red re-release though ... it comes with a 5.1 DVD-A that was mixed by Steven Wilson!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2009 at 10:55
"...And all of a sudden, kids can download an album in the space of minutes. Not just an album - The band's entire back catalogue. Think about it - A kid downloads The Wall, listens to a couple of tracks, doesn't like what he hears and deletes it. This is the true danger of the download - When music can be so easily obtained, it can be cast away with just as little thought."

- Steven Wilson

Well, you should put all copies a new album in a crate on the  South Pole then, and the only for the fans is to go there and get it.







Edited by Rottenhat - October 02 2009 at 11:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2009 at 18:25
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Kim? Kim? wrote:

In my opinion, this is not any good if it does not give me the whole album. I want the overall feel of an album. And also, what is the difference between me downloading an album, and then buying it, and me listening to some tracks on myspace the buying it, or the opposite. I've got the impression that the fact that it is illegal is just a dormant law, at least here in Norway.
I'm no expert on Norwegian law but I suggest you check first. I quick search on the internet has revieled that the Norwegian Copyright law clearly outlaws the illegal downloading of files. "The Norwegian Copyright Act determines what we can legally do with music, films, books, pictures and other so-called intellectual property. Let’s start with the easy bit. It is illegal to download and use music, films, books and pictures from the Internet without the permission of the owners of the material" - source: http://forbrukerportalen.no/Artikler/2006/1158924659.59
 
or try this:
Quote Norway's Supreme Court has upheld the lower court's earlier ruling and decided that linking from a website to MP3 files is illegal even when the actual MP3 files aren't hosted by or in any way associated to the website linking to them.
So the Norwegian Supreme Court says that even posting a link to an illegal download is illegal. That suggests that illegal downloading is far from being a dormant law in Norway.
 
 


Oh, maybe I misunderstood the concept of a dormant law, then. I know that the law is there like you said, but what I meant was that it is almost never executed, and that everybody admits that they are downloading (using torrents, etc.) and it is commonly accepted (not that that makes it legal, though), so the law exists, but is not really 'active'.

But I see the points many of the anti-downloaders are making, and I agree with most of them - I just find it hard to be idealistic/anti-hedonistic enough to stop downloading and to implement those concepts in my own life. It's a bit like my relationship with vegetarianism - I accept and support the ideas, but I somehow am to hedonistic to stop eating meat, etc. It's silly, really.
But maybe one day I shall see it all much clearer and delete all my digital files and stop downloadingLOL.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2009 at 22:24
Originally posted by Rottenhat Rottenhat wrote:



Well, you should put all copies a new album in a crate on the  South Pole then, and the only for the fans is to go there and get it.



INGENIOUS


Edited by MaxerJ - October 02 2009 at 22:24
Godspeed, You Bolero Enthusiasts
'Prog is all about leaving home...' - Moshkito
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2009 at 22:28
Quote "...And all of a sudden, kids can download an album in the space of minutes. Not just an album - The band's entire back catalogue. Think about it - A kid downloads The Wall, listens to a couple of tracks, doesn't like what he hears and deletes it. This is the true danger of the download - When music can be so easily obtained, it can be cast away with just as little thought."

- Steven Wilson


Damn kids.




Edited by KoS - October 02 2009 at 22:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2009 at 22:37
Yeah Kos....true enough.  Some of us are old crabby guysLOL

But ya know something else...sometimes you (general "you") young guys are just as quick to label us as we are you. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2009 at 03:43

Hi, just a thought here about this mp3 discussion. I had bought a lot of music in the cassette tape era, and these were copyrighted, legally distributed stuff by their appropriate labels. Of course, the artists had their share of the sales. Years gone by, cassette players became obsolete. Legal MP3 download off amazon or itunes mean nothing to me as my country is not eligible. Do you think downloading in this case is wrong?

I do buy some albums i really like on CD format, even though i already paid for the cassette fifteen years ago. But to buy back all of those albums in CD i need to be a millionaire, even if I hunted most of my CDs on ebay.

And who are we to justify the right in all we do
Until we seek, until we find Ammonia Avenue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrmJ39j58W0
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2009 at 09:41
it's always amusing to read insightful comments about how today's pop culture is easily disposed of or tossed away for the next new thing.
I know that my generation still has all its' Bay Cit Roller LPs, the platform shoes, the laser video discs, and we see no point in playing top 40 trivia from the 70s, because, well the top 40 in our time wasn't trivial. It was filled with eternally musically important acts like Shaun Cassidy & Leif Garrett.

Please, there has always been ephemera in pop culture. Always will be. Just because most people don' choose to hold onto what you feel is important is just your choice of priorities.
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2009 at 10:09
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

Please, there has always been ephemera in pop culture. Always will be. Just because most people don' choose to hold onto what you feel is important is just your choice of priorities.


words of wisdom Clap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2009 at 11:03
For those who would like to preserve the past ephemera , I will accept cash, Paypal or Visa for shipping my Bay City Rollers'' LPs to anywhere in the world. My Shaun Cassidy albums though, I am donating to our local library for posterity.

Doesn't anyone remember the TV show "the San Pedro Beach Bums" ?

oh, and all genres of music and art have their fair share of ephemera. because not everything deserves to be preserved forever, and nothing everything that does deserve to be preserved is preserved.
Except for , seemingly, any old building that as managed to stay standing for more than 75 years.
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2009 at 11:46
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

For those who would like to preserve the past ephemera , I will accept cash, Paypal or Visa for shipping my Bay City Rollers'' LPs to anywhere in the world. My Shaun Cassidy albums though, I am donating to our local library for posterity.

Doesn't anyone remember the TV show "the San Pedro Beach Bums" ?

oh, and all genres of music and art have their fair share of ephemera. because not everything deserves to be preserved forever, and nothing everything that does deserve to be preserved is preserved.
Except for , seemingly, any old building that as managed to stay standing for more than 75 years.


Owning a Bay City Rollers LP could be deemed embarrassing but owning a bootleg would be shameful. Even Hell has a door policy. I'll trade you my Haircut 100 discography (and posters) for your Rollers collection.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2009 at 17:35
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:



The people who love music will usually buy the album after "stealing" it. If I like an album that I copy from a friend, I'll always buy it.


Sorry, but I don't think that this is generally true. More than five years ago I was into file sharing, too. Back then (2002, 2003) you could do it without any legal consequences, and I must have downloaded tons of stuff. It was a time when I (re-)discovered prog, so I would download tons of stuff. In retrospect I only purchased a small fraction of all those albums. It's not that I wouldn't want to purchase them ... but even though I have a fairly big budget for music (especially compared to those who live in poorer countries), I simply couldn't afford buying those albums. For example I had the *entire* Zappa discography, more than 100 albums.

One day I realized that what I was doing was wrong ... so I deleted all my downloaded files, and I haven't engaged in illegal downloading for more than five years now (no music, no movies, no software ... nothing).

My point is: I'm sure that many people who download illegally are doing it with the best intentions (buying stuff if they like it) but at the end of the day they will not buy everything they download and enjoy. That's a problem IMO, because it means that people are listening to the work of an artist, enjoying it, but not compensating the artist. The fair solution would be to use legal offerings to sample the artist's albums and then buying albums based on those samples. I know that people who are used to listen to whole albums in order to make the decision are cautious to trust samples ... but from my own experience you rarely get disappointed by an album compared to the myspace samples (for example).


If someone downloads an album that they like, why wouldn't they buy it? It's probably because they don't have the money to buy everything they like. If we didn't download the album in the first place, we still wouldn't buy it because we don't have the money.

If the situation does work out that way, then all the download did was give you some exposure to the artist, hopefully resulting in a purchase of a new album, or something like that down the road. Sure there are exceptions, but that is how I look at it. The bottom line is that we won't have the money to buy every album in existence, whether we download it or not. And I should mention that I rarely fileshare. I just try to defend it because it gets so much negative hype, when in reality it's no worse than "samples".

-Jeff

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2009 at 21:24
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:


If someone downloads an album that they like, why wouldn't they buy it? It's probably because they don't have the money to buy everything they like. If we didn't download the album in the first place, we still wouldn't buy it because we don't have the money.

If the situation does work out that way, then all the download did was give you some exposure to the artist, hopefully resulting in a purchase of a new album, or something like that down the road. Sure there are exceptions, but that is how I look at it. The bottom line is that we won't have the money to buy every album in existence, whether we download it or not. And I should mention that I rarely fileshare. I just try to defend it because it gets so much negative hype, when in reality it's no worse than "samples".

-Jeff

True for me.

And who are we to justify the right in all we do
Until we seek, until we find Ammonia Avenue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrmJ39j58W0
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2009 at 18:53

Anyone who has been following the parallel discussions in the Martin Orford Interview thread may be aware that there is a line of thought that sees downloading (and specifically illegal downloading) as causing a revolution in how music is presented, promoted and sold. On the face of it this seems like a logical conclusion, but I am not so convinced that downloading is responsible this change and may actually have hindered it to some extent.

 

We are all aware of the horror stories about major label recording contracts and how they rip-off their artists, we have seen the public fights between big name stars such as Prince and George Michael and their respective record labels and seen how bands are dropped by labels as soon as they fail to deliver the next million selling album. We’ve also seen the successes that artists like Radiohead and NIN can achieve by extraditing themselves from restrictive recording contracts and using the Internet to market themselves. Yet still there are queues of people auditioning for X Factor and <insert my country name here>'s Got Talent and countless young bands sending in their demos to every record label they can find the postal address for. There are thousands of aspiring artists and performers who would sell their grandmothers to get a recording contract with any record label, big, small, independent or multinational, they approach these contracts with $$ signs in their eyes and sign them without quibble.

 

So what went wrong, and why do all these people still believe in hitting the big time with a major recording contract?

 
Originally posted by personal thoughts of Dean Cracknell, Age 52½ personal thoughts of Dean Cracknell, Age 52½ wrote:

  

Economics. No one, even record execs and A&R men, can predict which artists will make it big - signing an artist is a gamble – and they take the all risks - they pay all money up front to get the product onto the shelves. The record company pays for the costs of recording, manufacturing and distribution of the album; they pay for the promotion, advertising and the promotional video; and they paid the artist an advance on royalties. If the release was a success then the label made money, but if it failed they lost. The labels minimised the risk by signing a number of different artists so that the losses from all the flops and failures will be covered by the big successes and the more bands they could afford to sign then the more chances they had of having successful singles and albums. This is how Tubular Bells initially financed Gong, Tangerine Dream, Kevin Coyne, Ivor Cutler, Tom Newman, Captain Beefheart, Slapp Happy & Henry Cow, Clearlight Symphony, Robert Wyatt and Hatfield and the North. The really big labels can also cover this risk by having a large back catalogue of perennial sellers in a diversity of genres so they can weather the vagaries of fads and trends (kind of sobering thought that Bing Crosby’s “White Christmas” helped finance the birth of Progressive Rock through Decca/Deram). The recording contracts between label and artist are also structured to minimise those losses for the label, they are geared to not pay out royalties until all the production costs have been repaid, including the advance that the band was given at the beginning of the contract (it’s not called an advance for nothing), and the royalties are set at a value that leaves enough cash for the label to finance more artists and albums and still make a profit for their owners and shareholders.

 

The problem with that economic model is that the successful artists are paying for the unsuccessful ones, which means that the popular artists are not seeing the full benefit of their success – which in turn leads to the inevitable claims of rip-off and artistic control when the artist is pressured for another hit album. It also relies solely on sales of a single product – if sales drop then earnings drop across the board.

 

This model does not work so well for smaller labels, who need to see a steady income from all their artists – they don’t need the one big success to pay for the others, they need all their albums and singles to sell in moderate numbers so they all paid for themselves. While that may seem like a more stable approach, the life-span of the independent label can be short because their artists are more specialist, targeted at a narrow trend, fad, genre or subgenre of music. When that genre became less popular then all their artists sold less, and if several of their artists fail to sell then they will make a loss. When the losses get too much and they cannot pay their suppliers (studios, pressing plants, distributors) they go bankrupt and fold; or get swallowed up by a bigger label who wanted the steady selling back catalogue and perhaps the one or two the more successful artists on their own roster.

 

However, in August 1982 the record labels received a massive windfall – a new invention called CD was launched - and suddenly their entire back catalogues were viable again and sales soured. In a time of rapid sales growth, lesser known, poor selling artists were dropped like stones and even major artists whose popularity had declined were seen as unnecessary and a burden. New talent was still needed, but the deals being offered less lucrative and less speculative, advances were smaller and the up-front costs were minimised, it also meant that if an artist was not a success on the first album, then there probably wouldn’t be a second.

 

This 50 year old business model began to break down in the 1990s, (before the advent of broadband, downloading and P2P), and was suffering in the early 2000s when market saturation of the reissued albums was reached. Labels delved deeper into their back catalogues and, because production costs were practically zero, they could concentrate on reissuing more obscure artists for niche markets, they also discovered the money spinning potential of remastering to resell what they had already sold two times over.

 

In the meantime, artists who were dropped in the 80s and 90s started their own labels and new Independent labels, rather than having aspirations of being big labels (like those of the 70s), carried on the tradition set in the 80s of catering for niche markets and concentrated on bands that did not need huge operating budgets. (One of the problems facing small labels is they do not have the cash-flow to finance multi-million sales – once an artist gets too big they either have to let them go, or risk having the whole label being bought-up by a major)

 

By working with smaller overheads and tighter margins they could succeed because they knew their market, they could target their product directly to the fans and then use that to promote themselves to fans of related artists – social networking didn’t start with MyFace, it started on paper and on dial-up email with artists using mailing lists collected at gigs and through fan-clubs and appreciation societies to stay in contact with their fans, (something that was used to great effect in the 1970s by bands like The Enid). The methods being hailed as revolutionary today were pioneered by these artists and labels.

 

 

The advent of broadband and mass downloading in my opinion created a huge smoke-screen that diverted the Major labels from putting their house in order, it gave them a scapegoat to rally against because it did affect their sales figures – they are sharp enough at understanding the market they operate in and employ well educated and well qualified accountants to tell them so. It also affected the smaller labels who were already working on methods to avoid the problems faced by declining album sales, and had been for many years before, because it removed a vital percentage of their revenue stream. So while it may look like P2P downloading has triggered this revolution, I believe it had already started before then, and would have happened quicker without it.

What?
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