Forum Home Forum Home > Other music related lounges > General Music Discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Throwaway Download Culture
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedThrowaway Download Culture

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 34567>
Author
Message
debrewguy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:09
as quoted from Bob Lefsetz' lefsetz email newsletter of October 1,2009". this is his conclusion after a run through of the sales ending 09/27/09 (see the whole thing at :
http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2009/10/01/sales-week-ending-92709/)

"CONCLUSION

No one seems to realize you can't get rich anymore.

You can't sell enough albums, you can't sell enough high-priced tickets.

The music industry is functioning like it's still the 1990s when a revolution has taken place.

It's not about stopping P2P theft, that won't make album sales go up dramatically.  The public just doesn't care.  Who could, about manufactured crap or stuff that's too hip for almost anybody's room.

And they may never care, not for years.

So it's back to the bunker.

Yes, you've got to be in it for the music.  You've got to love to play.  You can't want to become rich, because even a Top Forty hit generates little cash.  It's about having a career.  But those with careers are not flying private and buying Lamborghinis unless they made it in the seventies.  And no one wants to overpay to see those dudes one more time.

Major labels have fired the worker bees.  It would be like Facebook being run by an overpaid Mark Zuckerberg, and him alone.  But these big tech companies have tons of infrastructure.  There's no infrastructure at a major anymore.

And with a tech company it's all about scale.  Can it grow?

The majors are anti-scale.  It's how can we cut enough overhead and get enough rights so we can still pay our presidents millions?  This is a recipe for the future?

And the formerly brain dead touring industry can't see there's a problem.  Used to be the agents and promoters lived on the backs of the record companies.  The labels spent to build stars that people wanted to see.  Now, the labels don't have that kind of money, albums don't sell well enough, hell, they want some of that touring industry money themselves!

So what does the touring industry do?  Raise prices!

But the audience has had enough.  And they don't want to see new bands, why should they?  It's more fun to play games on your iPhone, cruise for dates on Craigslist, which is positively free.

If the money is coming back, music has to drive the culture.  Going to the show must be a monthly occurrence, not a once a year event.

Breaking bands takes a long time.   Oh, you can try a short cut, with a hit single, but that doesn't generate a career.

So, the turning point has come.  Everybody in it for the money is experiencing his last hurrah.  Finally, the stage is set for new players, doing it only for the music, to rebuild the industry.  Because there's just not enough money in it for the old powers to continue to reign.  And only interested in the biggest sellers, who don't sell crap anymore, they're leaving a ton of crumbs on the table.

Majors should get out of new music production, they do it poorly, the risk to reward ratio is horrible.  They should just be catalog houses.  When will they admit this to themselves?

Live Nation's problems are worse.  There are no stars to fill their buildings.  A merger with Ticketmaster brings talent, but does one expect Irving to just hand over acts on bad terms?  And those ancient acts can't sell tickets like they used to.

Holy f**k.  While everybody's been focusing on people stealing the music, the whole business imploded.  The album model has been destroyed.  You're better off selling one hit single on iTunes and having no album!  The concept of a hit driving fans to hear the other nine tracks is laughable.  People know the rest is crap.  They've learned this over decades.  It will take years to convince them otherwise.  But you've got to start with great music, that's the only way out of this.  And there's just not enough of it.  Because the industry is leaving the consumer out of the equation.  Labels sell to radio and indies are so busy trying to look hip, most people don't pay attention.  A sorry state of affairs, but not terminal.  Just like Facebook eclipsed MySpace almost instantly, music could be revived again.  But not by Rupert Murdoch and those f**ks at MySpace, they're too old wave, but by innovators.  You might decry Twitter, but there's more action there than there is on this chart.  Twitter is everything music used to be...immediate, thrilling, satisfying, educational...and you could be a part of it!  Interscope doesn't care about fans, it cares about lifestyle, that of its executives, and the fans know it.  I don't see Jimmy inviting Black Eyed Peas fans into the building to romp and participate.  It's us versus them in the music business whereas online we're all in it together, the customer is truly king.

History has wiped the landscape clean.  We're at the dawn of a new age.  Thank f**king god."
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
Back to Top
meatal View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: September 23 2009
Location: Kelowna
Status: Offline
Points: 94
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:23
This is a topic I've always wanted to see. And kudos to you people supporting bands by buying albums at a later date. I don't have a problem with some of the things related to MP-3 downloads, like out of print items, bootlegs (band isn't getting money for them anyway), but people downloading whole albums and then not buying it, not so cool. Great way on the net however for many band to get heard around the world whereas they couldn't before and buying MP-3 albums is a great cost effective  idea.
The concept stated here in a few posts saying you really need the feel of the whole album is true, especially  in Prog (and related styles) because a lot of these artists whether it's a concept album or not, work on themes (musically and lyrically) that you can't sometimes get from one song.
Now it's true many artists do it for the love of music first, but man, does it ever hurt the smaller bands when people just download it for free, sure recording costs have come way down over the years, but there still is costs: recording, mastering, artwork, for the smaller artists the manufacturing on their own, and whether you do it for the love of it or not TIME, to create the music and lyrics etc...
Now whether or not the band is big or small shouldn't really matter if people buy it or not, because the bands/artists portion is always, always the smallest amount.

IE: If you say designed a new toothbrush, invested your money on it, would you then (other than a few promos) manufacture it and give it away for free?

Someone said to me "ya I download all my music for free but I might go to a show and that's paying for them", well, a lot of smaller artists can't come to your town especially independents because they aren't making enough money from the purchase of cd's to fund a tour. Keep in mind any money any band gets no matter how big, from a label to tour comes out of the bands pocket (nothing they get from a label is FREE) .

Have I downloaded stuff on occassion, yes, I have their were a few albums I could just not find and get. (so I'm not trying to come across as someone who's never done it)

Anyways, cool to see people who do support the artists in this digital age cause it ain't going away.

Of course point to ponder is, if all of this downloading was around in the 60/70/80's, probably none of the bands Metallica, Yes, Led Zeppelin (the list is endless) would have become as big as they are now.
I love a lot of bands, but c'mon, all of them of that time have released a stinker that you bought, but back then all you'd hear was a single (sometimes a station would play the whole thing on a release day), and people lined up at a record store to buy it.

Off topic a bit:
One last thing I find funny, I've been to quite a few artist signings (at a record store) and find it weird when some people would come in and tell the artist "I love your stuff, I downloaded all your albums" or "Can you sign this" (and it's a pirated item) and then of course I've seen some artists refuse to sign that stuff and seen the person later saying that the artist is a jerk for not signing it.
The bitter harvest of a barren land, I'm painting pictures you don't understand.
(Fates Warning)
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:25
Originally posted by Kim? Kim? wrote:

In my opinion, this is not any good if it does not give me the whole album. I want the overall feel of an album. And also, what is the difference between me downloading an album, and then buying it, and me listening to some tracks on myspace the buying it, or the opposite. I've got the impression that the fact that it is illegal is just a dormant law, at least here in Norway.
I'm no expert on Norwegian law but I suggest you check first. I quick search on the internet has revieled that the Norwegian Copyright law clearly outlaws the illegal downloading of files. "The Norwegian Copyright Act determines what we can legally do with music, films, books, pictures and other so-called intellectual property. Let’s start with the easy bit. It is illegal to download and use music, films, books and pictures from the Internet without the permission of the owners of the material" - source: http://forbrukerportalen.no/Artikler/2006/1158924659.59
 
or try this:
Quote Norway's Supreme Court has upheld the lower court's earlier ruling and decided that linking from a website to MP3 files is illegal even when the actual MP3 files aren't hosted by or in any way associated to the website linking to them.
So the Norwegian Supreme Court says that even posting a link to an illegal download is illegal. That suggests that illegal downloading is far from being a dormant law in Norway.
 
 
What?
Back to Top
debrewguy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:26
oh, I wonder if they had the internet back in the days when cars were introduced, whether the horse & carriage industry would have been indulging in the same forward looking complaining.

Please, there is no time machine on the horizon. There are no arguements or words that will bring back massive album sales. No matter the morality or legal basis they stand on. And yes, to those who insist right is right, are you looking to be right or to be helpful ?

I went to Frank's Music today. I bought the Drive-By Truckers new CD - the Fine Print - a compilation of out-takes from over their career. A band that has never had a gold album , even in their home country of the U.S. . Yet they're on their 10th release. Even financed their breakthrough album - Southern Rock Opera - by getting people to buy bonds with a guaranteed return of 6%. If  the album did well, these people would be paid back from the sales revenue. If not, the band would get loans to pay them back. SO IQ guy , try and find an article where Patterson Hood or Mike Cooley complained about the lack of major label support or low CD sales. Their fanbase is willing to pay for their albums.We want the t-shirts, the hats, the special edition re-issue CDs. Because we're fans, not just casual listeners who are looking to throw $20 away.

I thenspent some time looking through the CD racks. No sign of IQ. Marillion had about a dozen or so, their first two, and then a bunch of H era releases, including a few special editions. And more than a few other mid sized prog groups were in stock. But no PFM. Some VDGG. A lot of Floyd. A lot of Genesis, even Gabriel stuff. The complete series of Gentle Giant re-issues. So someone somewhere is buying those bands. But not IQ.
I could find any number of obscure extreme metal bands, punk bands, country bands, and a good number of local indie acts, even about 50 or so Acadian artists. But no IQ. Saga's last DVD, I had to special order.

I went to Spin-It. Their LP guy was in today going through boxes of used LPs they'd gotten in lately. There seems to be a good 50-60 good albums that come in each week, and most sell quickly. They also had some 20 new re-issue sealed LPs by acts like AC/DC, some cult punk bands that I don't know, a few classic era Jazz artists. All going for $20 plus dollars. These sell within a week or so, and the store does a good business in special orders for sealed re-issued LPs. They also sell local acts EP, LPs and CDs. According to the owner, Pat, some of these acts outsell a lot of the international acts. Now mind you , his clientele don't go there to buy the new Whitney Houston CD. But mainstream stuff, the top 40 of the day - nowhere to be found or gathering dust once it leaves the charts. 30-40  year old Rush, Yes, Pink Floyd , Zep, Sabbath Lps ... they sell for $4-10. And they sell. Well.

SO ... is it that downloads are stealing sales, or just really that some musical acts just don't interest enough people, or have enough hard core fans that can be bothered to search & buy new albums ?

'Cause if it's the latter, which it is imho (and Bob's), then all this holier than thou preaching is wasting time and hurting acts that should be embracing the new reality, and also considering why they feel entitled to the riches of the old days ? You want to get paid, put out something that someone will pay for. Even if it is available somewhere for free. Some bands manage to do so. SO it's not exactly impossible, eh. Or , maybe some bands just don't have enough fans that can be bothered to do so.

Oh well, now to listen to the two EPs from the Varsity Weirdos that I picked up today. The band is made up of two guys from Fear of Lipstick. Who took their name from a Bad Luck 13 song. Who are a Moncton Punk legend from the early 90s. There is a demand for a compilation CD. But the band members aren't interested in taking up the job. But the fans all have the original EPs. And will gladly make a CD copy for those who don't have them. Which the band is O.K. with. 'Cause they have day jobs and are happy to have their music still appreciated. 'Cause ... they were in it because they had fun making music they loved. And made a little money at the same time ...


Edited by debrewguy - October 01 2009 at 18:41
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
Back to Top
Finnforest View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:34
I love how just believing people should pay for what they take is "holier than thou" to you Claude. 

FantasticClapLOL
Back to Top
Finnforest View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:39
I still pay for my Cable TV bill too.....I'm a sucker, I should figure out how to pirate that with some illegal device I can buy on the internet, right Claude?

Cause those big bad TV productions companies don't really deserve to be paid what they charge....

 


Edited by Finnforest - October 01 2009 at 19:17
Back to Top
Henry Plainview View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:41
Steve Wilson's bitterness about downloading really irritates me. The Wall starts off pretty strongly, if one is really bored by In the Flesh then one probably shouldn't waste time with the rest of the album, it isn't even very good...
 
Finn, you shouldn't have cable, really.


Edited by Henry Plainview - October 01 2009 at 18:43
if you own a sodastream i hate you
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:52
Claude, you won't find IQ in the bricks and mortar record stores because they are signed to Inside/out, whose distributor and owner, SPV, filed for insolvency in May of this year - while that does not mean the company has folded, it does mean that its operations have been scaled down. Inside/Out have now agreed a partnership with Century Media and will be distributed world-wide through EMI - it will take a while for this new deal to filter down and for product to start moving again.
 
What?
Back to Top
Finnforest View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:53
I don't HenryLOL

Just an appropriate analogy.  If I don't pay for my music, why should I pay for my TV if I possess the knowledge to pirate it? 

Don't like the Wall, eh?   Hmmmm....gonna have to work on you about thatEvil Smile
Back to Top
meatal View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: September 23 2009
Location: Kelowna
Status: Offline
Points: 94
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:57
Hey for some bands/ artists it might be flattering for them that people even care to download it. It is a great vehicle to get people to hear you.
Also I was thinking, every time I go to a restaurant and finish eating a meal and then think the meal was not good or just OK, should I pay for it??? 
The bitter harvest of a barren land, I'm painting pictures you don't understand.
(Fates Warning)
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 18:58
Originally posted by meatal meatal wrote:

Also I was thinking, every time I go to a restaurant and finish eating a meal and then think the meal was not good or just OK, should I pay for it??? 
The return argument given there is that if you didn't like it, why did you eat it?
What?
Back to Top
Finnforest View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 19:05
Originally posted by meatal meatal wrote:

Hey for some bands/ artists it might be flattering for them that people even care to download it. It is a great vehicle to get people to hear you.
 



If they feel that way, and many do offer free downloads on their sites, that's wonderful.  But if the band is charging a fee, that should be respected by music fans.
Back to Top
Henry Plainview View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 19:24
Originally posted by meatal meatal wrote:

Also I was thinking, every time I go to a restaurant and finish eating a meal and then think the meal was not good or just OK, should I pay for it??? 
That is not the same thing at all. Downloading an album incurs no costs for the musicians and label. A restaurant has to pay for the food and preparation.
 
But now we're back to the eternal piracy debate.
if you own a sodastream i hate you
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 19:27
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by meatal meatal wrote:

Also I was thinking, every time I go to a restaurant and finish eating a meal and then think the meal was not good or just OK, should I pay for it??? 
That is not the same thing at all. Downloading an album incurs no costs for the musicians and label. A restaurant has to pay for the food and preparation.
 
But now we're back to the eternal piracy debate.
...and that discussion never goes anywhere, so there's no real gain in pursuing it. Wink
What?
Back to Top
meatal View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: September 23 2009
Location: Kelowna
Status: Offline
Points: 94
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 19:28
True the actual downloading incurs no cost, but the music cost something to make.

The bitter harvest of a barren land, I'm painting pictures you don't understand.
(Fates Warning)
Back to Top
MaxerJ View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 03 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 127
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 20:03
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:



"CONCLUSION

No one seems to realize you can't get rich anymore.

You can't sell enough albums, you can't sell enough high-priced tickets.

The music industry is functioning like it's still the 1990s when a revolution has taken place.

It's not about stopping P2P theft, that won't make album sales go up dramatically.  The public just doesn't care.  Who could, about manufactured crap or stuff that's too hip for almost anybody's room.

And they may never care, not for years.

So it's back to the bunker.

Yes, you've got to be in it for the music.  You've got to love to play.  You can't want to become rich, because even a Top Forty hit generates little cash.  It's about having a career.  But those with careers are not flying private and buying Lamborghinis unless they made it in the seventies.  And no one wants to overpay to see those dudes one more time.

*snip*



I feel like i just read something of... infinite value to my life, but it just can't seem to think hard enough to find out what that value is...

could someone explain what he just said?
Godspeed, You Bolero Enthusiasts
'Prog is all about leaving home...' - Moshkito
Back to Top
MaxerJ View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 03 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 127
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 20:08
Oh and as a side note, a uni lecturer i know was telling me about the theories behind digitizing rays, a.k.a a machine to turn digital material into physical material. She thinks -and i'm inclined to agree with her - that if such a device was ever made, it would mean the end of capitalism/the WORLD.

Think about it: why work when you could download a pizza for free off the net? Or a Lamborghini?

It's related to the topic because... this could be the breakdown of the music industry some of these posters seem to be waiting for
Godspeed, You Bolero Enthusiasts
'Prog is all about leaving home...' - Moshkito
Back to Top
Qboyy007 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 21 2009
Location: SoCal
Status: Offline
Points: 186
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2009 at 21:37
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Qboyy007 Qboyy007 wrote:

I agree with you somewhat but I think that with today's technology, words and rumors spread like wild fire. Creating internet hype is absurdly easy, thus, it's much easier for a band in today's world to sell albums and make a profit.
Where did you get this information? Just look at the volume of bands on MySpace desperately trying to hype their music on us and see how many actually make it - if it was as easy as you say it is they'd all be selling CDs by the truckload. The ones that succeed are the ones with big money backing - name one truly independent unknown artist who has broken through by Internet Hype alone, then look to see what label they are signed to, and who owns that label.


You'll cringe, but Hollywood Undead Dead
The amount of bands on myspace is near ridiculous, but we never would have heard of them or listened to them if it weren't for the ability to go on the internet. Its the beauty of technology, it allows us to discover things we previously wouldn't have gotten the chance to experience. Thats why I think people should embrace file sharing (or just the increased usage of the internet in general), it allows users to  expand their possibilities to so much more than Disturbed and Jonas Brothers. 
Back to Top
A Person View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2009 at 00:05
Originally posted by MaxerJ MaxerJ wrote:

Oh and as a side note, a uni lecturer i know was telling me about the theories behind digitizing rays, a.k.a a machine to turn digital material into physical material. She thinks -and i'm inclined to agree with her - that if such a device was ever made, it would mean the end of capitalism/the WORLD.

Think about it: why work when you could download a pizza for free off the net? Or a Lamborghini?

It's related to the topic because... this could be the breakdown of the music industry some of these posters seem to be waiting for

Sorry to get side tracked but wouldn't that just make ISPs charge outrageous prices and limit internet use? But then people could go to McDonalds or Starbucks for free wifi, but they would be closed because people would be dling they goods for free instead of buying them. Hmm, interesting.
Back to Top
tworoads View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: February 13 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2009 at 01:46
i want to say a  big thank you to everyone who has posted comments on this thread,it has been a very interesting read and it is good to see so many people so passionate about their music and beliefs.

It has certainly brought up quite a few things that i had never even considered before,and created quite a balanced argument i think in the end.

thanks adrian (todds) www.progboys.com

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 34567>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.137 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.