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Raff 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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 Posted: September 03 2009 at 16:09 |
 Negoba wrote:
No one seemed to complain about the potential cost when we marched off to war, losing 1000s of our nice healthy Republicans boys alongside the poor ones with nowhere else to go for concepts they understood nothing about. No one complained about the economy when regulations were continually removed on private industry, yet the worst crash in decades derived directly from this lack of regulation. Yet when we talk about health care for poor citizens, people keep acting like we can't afford it. It's all smokescreens.
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 I'd rather not get into the whole defense thing, but I live close to the Pentagon, and I can't even imagine what kind of expenditure goes into keeping that huge machine in working order. What I find really odd is that the same people who are so dead set against the gov't handling healthcare do not bat an eyelid when it comes to issues such as defense or immigration control. And I'd better stop now, because I have very unconventional views on both issues, and don't want to ruffle feathers more than I have already done.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 16:11 |
Time to go meditate and prance around naked with a bunch of nymphs burning flags and dropping acid with Muslim terrorists. You all have a nice night.
I actually am going to meditate. Politics gives me a headache.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 16:13 |
Negoba wrote:
Time to go meditate and prance around naked with a bunch of nymphs burning flags and dropping acid with Muslim terrorists.
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Typical Saturday evening for me. 
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 17:24 |
T, your liberal bias is showing again. ;-) While the debate has been rather silly at times, perhaps because Obama took a "lesson" from Hillary and dumped the whole thing on Congress, it is disinguous to say there are no reasonable objections to government health care. The government has had a history of screwing this up (like the war you keep complaining about!), and I think it's perfectly reasonable to be concerned that this will directly hurt you in a significant manner. Now I object to the fact that the debate is apparently change vs no change and that there is a whole PAC dedicated to calling Obama a Nazi (LaRouche), but don't demonize the other side because they're wary about incurring even more debt.
Padraic wrote:
Like most other issues, it doesn't seem like a discussion on the actual details is possible here.  |
I'm not sure it's possible anywhere.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 17:27 |
Negoba wrote:
No one seemed to complain about the potential cost when we marched off to war, losing 1000s of our nice healthy Republicans boys alongside the poor ones with nowhere else to go for concepts they understood nothing about. No one complained about the economy when regulations were continually removed on private industry, yet the worst crash in decades derived directly from this lack of regulation. Yet when we talk about health care for poor citizens, people keep acting like we can't afford it. It's all smokescreens.
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It's easy to understand why.
1. Most of the americans that are shouting things like "goverment stay away of my medicare" are stupid enough to believe all the sh*t that their favorite right-wing fear-spreading press throws at them. So when they tell them terrorists=bad, army=saints and things like that, in those simple terms, they do the mental association and conclude that a war is worthy of expenditures, but never health care...
2. Those who are better educated yet still abhorr the idea of universal health care abhorr even more the idea of giving one of their "hard earned" dollars for something they can't hold, let alone enjoy.
3. Some of the better educated actually believe private healthcare is perfect. Don't ask me why, but some do.
4. With war, people see it as "an honorable cause" mostly because they or their children are not in it. As long as no direct relative is fighting abroad, they are not really suffering any ill effects of the war. On the other hand, paying 5 extra dollars a month so that Johny the Poor Guy can receive treatment is a severe blow to their self-respect, since 'they takin' my money outta my pocket'...
It's all individualism. It's all psychological and sociological, cultural. It's the way most americans are. It may change gradually, but it will happen over a span of many decades or even more.... Really, stop believing that it's economical or that the problem is political....
Change will occur in the future, when more people go to school and college, minorities access more power (and stop being minorities) and ignorance recedes back to where it belongs: the outskirts of a true civilized country
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 17:30 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
T, your liberal bias is showing again. ;-) While the debate has been rather silly at times, perhaps because Obama took a "lesson" from Hillary and dumped the whole thing on Congress, it is disinguous to say there are no reasonable objections to government health care. The government has had a history of screwing this up (like the war you keep complaining about!), and I think it's perfectly reasonable to be concerned that this will directly hurt you in a significant manner. Now I object to the fact that the debate is apparently change vs no change and that there is a whole PAC dedicated to calling Obama a Nazi (LaRouche), but don't demonize the other side because they're wary about incurring even more debt.
Padraic wrote:
Like most other issues, it doesn't seem like a discussion on the actual details is possible here. |
I'm not sure it's possible anywhere. |
Maybe so Henry, maybe so. I'm liberal, very liberal, and I recognize that. But the ignorance that most of the people opposing universal healthcare display is appalling. Really....
I just hope they enact some true reform.... If it's not perfect, it will be a start. Please.... the US is number 37 in healthcare in the world... 37...... We're not among the top-10 in life expectancy either.... Is it so hard to see there's something wrong here?
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 17:35 |
T, that number is not entirely fair because we rock the sh*t out of cancer and other diseases that require specialized care, and from what I understand, part of the reason our life expectancy is lower is that we have higher infant mortality than most other industrialized nations. Which is a bad thing, and I'm not entirely sure why that is, but it makes the statistics misleading.
But I do agree that something should be changed. It seems like they're not going about it the right way, though, since Obama's approval ratings have dropped significantly and Congress' remains dismal.
Raff wrote:
I'd rather not get into the whole defense thing, but I live close to the Pentagon, and I can't even imagine what kind of expenditure goes into keeping that huge machine in working order. What I find really odd is that the same people who are so dead set against the gov't handling healthcare do not bat an eyelid when it comes to issues such as defense or immigration control. And I'd better stop now, because I have very unconventional views on both issues, and don't want to ruffle feathers more than I have already done.
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But immigration and defense are two of the major reasons that government has existed throughout the centuries, while government health care is a recent invention.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66258
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 17:42 |
I think that the greatest fear with Universal Healthcare is that the government historically seems to screw up everything that they touch in some way, shape or form. Whether it is billions of dollars paid for a war. Seriously underpaid teachers, police officers, firemen, etc... but on the other hand a messed up education system and a questionable criminal system (depending on various points of view). Social security and Medicare are both kind of teetering on the brink of failure. And everybody has heard the stories of the government paying $1000 for each nut, screw and bolt that they purchased for various building projects or paying millions for research to determine which is the proper way to place toilet paper on a roll. Is it more efficient to take it from the top or the bottom?
I agree 100% that the system needs to be improved, but the big question is do we really think that we can trust our government to do it right and actually improve it?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 17:47 |
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Liberals are stupid.
Conservatives are stupid.
People deserve free healthcare because they do.
We shouldn't have to foot the bill for someone else.
You're all communists.
I think I'll have another beer and ignore this thread from here on out...I will be the first to admit that this is a bigger issue than I'm smart enough to deal with, but I'm pretty sure I know logical fallacies when I see them, and this thread is full of them.
Time for a beer.
That I bought.
With my hard-earned dollar.
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 18:20 |
Epignosis wrote:
Liberals are stupid.
Conservatives are stupid.
People deserve free healthcare because they do.
We shouldn't have to foot the bill for someone else.
You're all communists.
I think I'll have another beer and ignore this thread from here on out...I will be the first to admit that this is a bigger issue than I'm smart enough to deal with, but I'm pretty sure I know logical fallacies when I see them, and this thread is full of them.
Time for a beer.
That I bought.
With my hard-earned dollar.
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Alright Robert, I'll be done too. I'm a teenager so what the hell do I know anyway? 
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rpe9p
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 31 2008
Location: Charlottesville
Status: Offline
Points: 485
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 18:23 |
Negoba wrote:
rpe9p wrote:
Yeah Obama would do a lot better if he adopted your strategy and just started belittling conservatives because obviously anyone who believes in fiscal conservatism has been tricked by the big businesses or is downright stupid.
Its difficult to argue the side of fiscal responsibility on an internet forum because there is usually a large liberal majority, but one very simple thing that you must realize people in the US are basing their views on is the fact that the US has just gone through a huge recession which Obama has tried to fix by loads and loads of deficit spending. Americans see this healthcare bill and the fact that it will put us another $1 trillion more in debt at least and maybe they feel that this isnt the time to insitute this health care system.
Just so people in other countries know, if you walk into a US hospital missing an arm, they wont turn you away because you cant pay for treatment. They are required by law to treat you and make sure your wounds have been adequately taken care of. They just they wont give you any expensive tests or pay for your cancer treatment for you, and for the most part im fine with that.
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You realize you are completely deluding yourself? I am belittling the idea that it's ok to deny poor people care because it is FRICKIN INSANE. No amount of "fiscal conservative" rhetoric will change the fact that a society that runs solely on the "Look out for #1" philosophy will fail. And your liberal majority whining is an excuse.
I believe profit for profit's sake only IS evil. Living a life based only on improving your own station is a sad excuse for a life. And basing a society on the assumption that the only motivating factor humans have is self-interest is a sad statement on your soul.
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You are grossly oversimplifying my views and attacking me for no reason. As I said earlier in the thread, most everyone believes that people are entitled to some amount of health care, yet people like you keep making it out as though republicans just want to kill everyone if they dont have money.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 18:27 |
J-Man wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Liberals are stupid.
Conservatives are stupid.
People deserve free healthcare because they do.
We shouldn't have to foot the bill for someone else.
You're all communists.
I think I'll have another beer and ignore this thread from here on out...I will be the first to admit that this is a bigger issue than I'm smart enough to deal with, but I'm pretty sure I know logical fallacies when I see them, and this thread is full of them.
Time for a beer.
That I bought.
With my hard-earned dollar.
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Alright Robert, I'll be done too. I'm a teenager so what the hell do I know anyway?
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You know good music when you hear it. 
Well, most of the time. (cough The Decemberists cough)
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rpe9p
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 31 2008
Location: Charlottesville
Status: Offline
Points: 485
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 18:28 |
The T wrote:
rpe9p wrote:
Just so people in other countries know, if you walk into a US hospital missing an arm, they wont turn you away because you cant pay for treatment. They are required by law to treat you and make sure your wounds have been adequately taken care of. They just they wont give you any expensive tests or pay for your cancer treatment for you, and for the most part im fine with that.
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My sister would've died or her cancer would've gotten worse if she lived here instead of Germany....
Let's just hope in 10/20 years from now you are not in need of any kind of cancer treatment.... And if you are, and your type of mindset wins, you're on your own. |
If I need treatment in 10/20 years hopefully I will either have insurance or have money saved up in case something like that happens. If not, then I will die and that is just the way I would prefer it. I would be open to the idea, however, of some sort of affordable disaster care insurance the government controls that will protect people from disasters like cancer.
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rpe9p
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 31 2008
Location: Charlottesville
Status: Offline
Points: 485
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 18:31 |
p0mt3 wrote:
Would you rather remain in the debt we are in, plus have sloppy management of tax-payed healthcare, OR would you rather be a little bit further in debt, but as a result have a more efficient, government-managed insurance policy where those who can't play for their own healthcare are provided for, while wasting less tax payer money?
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The big costs are for expensive tests/treatments, not the care which is currently provided and financed by taxpayers. Also this bolded part made me laugh, definitely an oxymoron
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rpe9p
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 31 2008
Location: Charlottesville
Status: Offline
Points: 485
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 18:32 |
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 18:42 |
rushfan4 wrote:
I think that the greatest fear with Universal Healthcare is that the government historically seems to screw up everything that they touch in some way, shape or form. Whether it is billions of dollars paid for a war. Seriously underpaid teachers, police officers, firemen, etc... but on the other hand a messed up education system and a questionable criminal system (depending on various points of view). Social security and Medicare are both kind of teetering on the brink of failure. And everybody has heard the stories of the government paying $1000 for each nut, screw and bolt that they purchased for various building projects or paying millions for research to determine which is the proper way to place toilet paper on a roll. Is it more efficient to take it from the top or the bottom?
I agree 100% that the system needs to be improved, but the big question is do we really think that we can trust our government to do it right and actually improve it? |
The even bigger question is: do you really think you can trust anyone else to do a good job - especially people who are in it solely for financial profit? Are we really so sure that the gov't is always the bad guy, and anything private is always good and wonderful? I can tell you that, at least in Italy, it is not so. I was badly ripped off by a private university, while my experience at a state university (even in retrospect) was much more positive. And what about the banks or companies that went so spectacularly belly-up? They were not part of the government, if my memory serves me right. I am not so sure that the gov't is the only entity guilty of wasting resources, manpower, and what not.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 18:43 |
rpe9p wrote:
p0mt3 wrote:
Would you rather remain in the debt we are in, plus have sloppy management of tax-payed healthcare, OR would you rather be a little bit further in debt, but as a result have a more efficient, government-managed insurance policy where those who can't play for their own healthcare are provided for, while wasting less tax payer money?
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The big costs are for expensive tests/treatments, not the care which is currently provided and financed by taxpayers. Also this bolded part made me laugh, definitely an oxymoron
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You can laugh at me all you want. It still doesn't make you right. Listen, I don't know what you're on, but the reality is that this healthcare bill would in fact do much more good than bad. The Government isn't always the answer, but in a case like this, I do think it would be more efficient. You can chuckle at that statement all day, but it doesn't change the numbers. Medicare IS much more efficient in it's spending than independent insurance providers, and it's overseen by the Government. This public option would simply be an expansion of that.
Edited by p0mt3 - September 03 2009 at 18:52
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 18:54 |
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Medicare and Social Security also have billions of unfunded liabilities and are on the brink of collapse.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 18:54 |
rpe9p wrote:
If I need treatment in 10/20 years hopefully I will either have insurance or have money saved up in case something like that happens. If not, then I will die and that is just the way I would prefer it.
I would be open to the idea, however, of some sort of affordable disaster care insurance the government controls that will protect people from disasters like cancer.
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Nevermind. After reading this statement, I now realize it is impossible to talk sense with someone in a mindset such as yours. Enjoy your tea party.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 18:55 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
Medicare and Social Security also have billions of unfunded liabilities and are on the brink of collapse. |
Yes. And yet they still put more money towards actually helping the people rather than administrative costs. I don't really understand what point you are trying to make. I never said the contrary.
Edited by p0mt3 - September 03 2009 at 18:56
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