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Negoba 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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 Posted: September 03 2009 at 09:24 |
 SentimentalMercenary wrote:
Negoba wrote:
rpe9p wrote:
Yeah Obama would do a lot better if he adopted your strategy and just started belittling conservatives because obviously anyone who believes in fiscal conservatism has been tricked by the big businesses or is downright stupid.
Its difficult to argue the side of fiscal responsibility on an internet forum because there is usually a large liberal majority, but one very simple thing that you must realize people in the US are basing their views on is the fact that the US has just gone through a huge recession which Obama has tried to fix by loads and loads of deficit spending. Americans see this healthcare bill and the fact that it will put us another $1 trillion more in debt at least and maybe they feel that this isnt the time to insitute this health care system.
Just so people in other countries know, if you walk into a US hospital missing an arm, they wont turn you away because you cant pay for treatment. They are required by law to treat you and make sure your wounds have been adequately taken care of. They just they wont give you any expensive tests or pay for your cancer treatment for you, and for the most part im fine with that.
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You realize you are completely deluding yourself? I am belittling the idea that it's ok to deny poor people care because it is FRICKIN INSANE. No amount of "fiscal conservative" rhetoric will change the fact that a society that runs solely on the "Look out for #1" philosophy will fail. And your liberal majority whining is an excuse.
I believe profit for profit's sake only IS evil. Living a life based only on improving your own station is a sad excuse for a life. And basing a society on the assumption that the only motivating factor humans have is self-interest is a sad statement on your soul.
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This is a bit rude. There are ways to disagree respectfully. Your belief that your collectivist views are holy whereas individualism is evil is blurring your sight a little bit and leads you to make quite radical statements me says. 
I agree with some parts of what you say. But individualism as the philosophy held by the Founding Fathers is not about not caring for others. You are wrong if you think this. |
I actually said that unbalanced individualism is evil, and if I'm emotional it's because this is what I do for a living, and it's getting torpedoed by nonsense. I've said multiple times that universal healthcare should be a no-brainer. Who administers the collective pot of money, that's a debate that should be happening. Just not whether all Americans should be included.
And I think this view is bi-partisan. Republicans want to discuss private administration, Democrats wanted a public option, and may have to give it up in order to achieve care for all. So be it. At least the most important part will have been achieved.
Edited by Negoba - September 03 2009 at 09:27
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 09:45 |
Negoba wrote:
And I think this view is bi-partisan. Republicans want to discuss private administration, Democrats wanted a public option, and may have to give it up in order to achieve care for all. So be it. At least the most important part will have been achieved. |
Without a public option I feel another government giveaway to private interests coming on, like that prescription bill stinker. Look forward to the continuation of escalating health insurance costs at the same time.
Edited by Slartibartfast - September 03 2009 at 14:14
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 10:02 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Negoba wrote:
And I think this view is bi-partisan. Republicans want to discuss private administration, Democrats wanted a public option, and may have to give it up in order to achieve care for all. So be it. At least the most important part will have been achieved. |
Without a public option I feel another government giveaway to private interests coming on, like that prescription bill stinker. Look forward to the continuation of escalating health insurance costs at the same time.
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There are pitfalls with either a public or private option as it now looks. I'm actually for a much bigger overhall which does away with the foolish idea of "insurance" completely. A public system a la the VA, and private system for those who wish to spring for it. If private entities want to construct financial products to help pay for the more expensive care, fine. But the public system should be simple. You walk in, you get cared for regardless of class, color, smell, or whatever. The private system can put whatever constraints they want, because they're private. Paying for the hospital system comes from taxes, and there aren't multiple plans and all that garbage.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 11:19 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
My absolute favorite thing about this whole scuffle was someone saying out loud that Stephen Hawking would be dead if he lived in Britain. |
Actually, if he lived in the US probably he would be dead... or he wouldn't have had the opportunity to give us the knowlledge he has given us....
And the really worst thing is that people pro-universal healthcare are losing with the people who say that or things like "goverment don't mess with my medicare".... It's like the rational beings are losing a battle of wits to the gorillas.... really.. with no offense to that beautiful creature, but we all know gorillas are not so knowledgeable about anything....
The only way one human being could be against universal health care is economic, but based on individualist interests... I can't see an opposition to this argument based on common-good ideas.... It's just pure and sheer individualism.... In the end people want more money to buy useless sh*t (because that's what they do with disposable income, they don't save it)...
rpe9p wrote:
Just so people in other countries know, if you walk into a US hospital missing an arm, they wont turn you away because you cant pay for treatment. They are required by law to treat you and make sure your wounds have been adequately taken care of. They just they wont give you any expensive tests or pay for your cancer treatment for you, and for the most part im fine with that.
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My sister would've died or her cancer would've gotten worse if she lived here instead of Germany....
Let's just hope in 10/20 years from now you are not in need of any kind of cancer treatment.... And if you are, and your type of mindset wins, you're on your own.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 11:57 |
The T wrote:
And the really worst thing is that people pro-universal healthcare are losing with the people who say that or things like "goverment don't mess with my medicare".... It's like the rational beings are losing a battle of wits to the gorillas.... really.. with no offense to that beautiful creature, but we all know gorillas are not so knowledgeable about anything....
It is rather hard to win a shouting match with a gorilla.....
The only way one human being could be against universal health care is economic, but based on individualist interests... I can't see an opposition to this argument based on common-good ideas.... It's just pure and sheer individualism.... In the end people want more money to buy useless sh*t (because that's what they do with disposable income, they don't save it)...
My thoughts exactly.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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akamaisondufromage
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
Status: Offline
Points: 6797
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 12:01 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
My absolute favorite thing about this whole scuffle was someone saying out loud that Stephen Hawking would be dead if he lived in Britain. |
Yep funny eh! I found this: I think it shows where this came from:
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Help me I'm falling!
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 12:18 |
The T wrote:
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My sister would've died or her cancer would've gotten worse if she lived here instead of Germany....
Let's just hope in 10/20 years from now you are not in need of any kind of cancer treatment.... And if you are, and your type of mindset wins, you're on your own. [/QUOTE]
And good riddance... I generally try not to attack others, but I have lost a number of loved ones (including my mother) to cancer, and reading stuff like that makes me sick to my stomach. Not to mention I wish I had never left my own country, with all its shortcomings.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 14:14 |
Edited by Slartibartfast - September 03 2009 at 15:44
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 14:47 |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGDdCDTNhWg
It is a very sad day.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:13 |
Let's see what happens....the plans on the table have never went as far as I would have them go. I've seen reports that say the compromise is to give an ultimatum to private insurers and Republicans, let private industry manage while insuring all, and if they succeed fine. If they fail, the public option enters.
We may find out what is real next Wednesday. Or maybe not.
At best this bill was only ever going to get the foot in the door. But I really really hope it does.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:28 |
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This will only be brought about gradually - it would be too big a shock to just wake up the next morning to single-payer and the eradication of all private insurance companies. One thing I recently had been thinking about was why not try these things on the state level first, as is already happening with Commonwealth Care? It provides an opportunity for lessons learned and gives you a lot of different approaches - analysis can be done on what works and what doesn't, actual costs and methods of cost containment, etc.
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SentimentalMercenary
Forum Groupie
Joined: August 12 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 66
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:29 |
Just to set things straight because most people are unaware of this :
"Of the 46 million uninsured, 9.7 million are not U.S. citizens; 17.6 million have annual incomes of more than $50,000; and 14 million already qualify for Medicaid or other programs. That leaves less than five million people truly uncovered out of a population of 307 million. Americans don't believe this problem--serious but correctable--justifies the radical shift Mr. Obama offers."
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Those who promise us paradise on earth never produced anything but a hell.
- Karl Popper
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:39 |
SentimentalMercenary wrote:
Just to set things straight because most people are unaware of this :
"Of the 46 million uninsured, 9.7 million are not U.S. citizens; 17.6 million have annual incomes of more than $50,000; and 14 million already qualify for Medicaid or other programs. That leaves less than five million people truly uncovered out of a population of 307 million. Americans don't believe this problem--serious but correctable--justifies the radical shift Mr. Obama offers." |
Source?
This does not reflect my direct daily experience with this problem. The statistic also does not included those who have insurance plans that pay for virtually nothing (the underinsured). And you don't get to just subtract the working without insurance. A family gross income of $50,000 may or may not be able to afford a meaningful family insurance plan without the protection of a group plan through employer.
The price of paying for insurance as an individual (or individual family) is central to the debate.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:40 |
SentimentalMercenary wrote:
Just to set things straight because most people are unaware of this :
"Of the 46 million uninsured, 9.7 million are not U.S. citizens; 17.6 million have annual incomes of more than $50,000; and 14 million already qualify for Medicaid or other programs. That leaves less than five million people truly uncovered out of a population of 307 million. Americans don't believe this problem--serious but correctable--justifies the radical shift Mr. Obama offers." |
Nice but that does nothing for those of us who are insured and face ever escalating premiums and crushing deductibles. And did you realize we are at war with Eastasia and have always been at war with Eurasia?
Edited by Slartibartfast - September 03 2009 at 15:43
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:41 |
SentimentalMercenary wrote:
Just to set things straight because most people are unaware of this :
"Of the 46 million uninsured, 9.7 million are not U.S. citizens; 17.6 million have annual incomes of more than $50,000; and 14 million already qualify for Medicaid or other programs. That leaves less than five million people truly uncovered out of a population of 307 million. Americans don't believe this problem--serious but correctable--justifies the radical shift Mr. Obama offers." |
So those who are not US citizens are not deserving of health care?  Glad they don't feel that way about non-EU citizens in Europe.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66264
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:42 |
Unfortunately, employer-provided health care is becoming more and more expensive and the worse that the system gets and the more expensive it gets (and don't fool yourself, under the current system it is going to become a lot more expensive in the next 5 to 10 years) the harder it is going to be for employers to provide coverage for employees and remain competitive against foreign competitors from countries with universal health care. This was a serious factor in the demise of the auto industry with U.S. companies trying to compete with Japan or the non-unionized foreign companies with plants in the Southern U.S. I am sure that it probably effects other industries as well.
As I recall, one of Obama's points with this "radical" health care reform is try to be pro-active and "fix" the system now, rather than waiting 5 or 10 or 20 years, when it will even more complex to fix. (reference the social security problem that has been talked about but ignored for years). Just imagine how bad of shape it would be in if Bush had succeeded in privatizing social security prior to the market crashing.
Edited by rushfan4 - September 03 2009 at 15:43
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:50 |
The Doctor wrote:
SentimentalMercenary wrote:
Just to set things straight because most people are unaware of this :
"Of the 46 million uninsured, 9.7 million are not U.S. citizens; 17.6 million have annual incomes of more than $50,000; and 14 million already qualify for Medicaid or other programs. That leaves less than five million people truly uncovered out of a population of 307 million. Americans don't believe this problem--serious but correctable--justifies the radical shift Mr. Obama offers." |
So those who are not US citizens are not deserving of health care? Glad they don't feel that way about non-EU citizens in Europe. |
I am a legal immigrant who came here following every single letter of the law. Will not be able to become a citizen before 2012, but in the meantime live here, and even pay taxes (I own the condo unit where I live). Thankfully I am covered by insurance through my husband, though I have no trust in it whatsoever (sorry, being honest here). I am a decent human being, made of flesh and blood just like the rest of you - only, I was not born here, so I suppose that makes me somewhat inferior  ... I just wish people counted to 1,000,000 before they said something that could hurt someone close to them.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66264
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 15:58 |
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For what it's worth, I think that the reference to the non-U.S. citizens is more towards the illegal immigrants. It is my understanding that medical care provided to people who are here illegally, largely goes unpaid, and is thus a huge financial strain on the medical system, which of course gets passed on to those who can afford to pay, or have insurance. From a moral standpoint, yes, everyone deserves medical attention no matter their status, but from an economical standpoint, it is unfortunately an issue.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 16:00 |
No one seemed to complain about the potential cost when we marched off to war, losing 1000s of our nice healthy Republicans boys alongside the poor ones with nowhere else to go for concepts they understood nothing about. No one complained about the economy when regulations were continually removed on private industry, yet the worst crash in decades derived directly from this lack of regulation. Yet when we talk about health care for poor citizens, people keep acting like we can't afford it. It's all smokescreens.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66264
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Posted: September 03 2009 at 16:06 |
Are you saying that the funds that would have been spent in Alaska to build the bridge to nowhere would have been better spent on saving peoples lives?
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Do you support universal healthcare?
