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drwlf 
Forum Newbie 
Joined: August 06 2009 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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 Posted: August 15 2009 at 05:46 |
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About the Epignosis album, it's actually really great and rejuvenating to see the community in action. Reviews sparking more conversation, and attracting more attention. Perhaps there'll be more reviews of the album now, evening out the extremes, or plainly just praising the album and leaving me looking like a hatemonger who just doesn't comprehend the album :) I've been more than positively surprised by the whole deal, I really didn't think the review of a first-timer could actually start any kind of conversation, I thought my review might be just shed off as utter nonsense :) Even though I've been a stalker of the site for longer than I can remember, the whole community has been rather unbeknownst to me. Now I'm just annoyed why I didn't register all those years before.. I guess it's time to go and introduce meself in zee Welcome newbies-forums. After this goddamn hangover wears off, so perhaps tomorrow! |
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UMUR
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 3069 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 06:04 |
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Ohh...donīt worry every review on this site is noticed and read and if a bit controversial as in this case also discussed.
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progkidjoel
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: March 02 2009 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 19643 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 07:29 |
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Thanks for the reply! Thats a skill I massively lack... Just another quick (and probably stupid) question - Is 1990 words too many for a good review? Obviously the length could be quite intimidating, but is that bad? Thanks again -Joel |
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10618 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 07:42 |
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^ it's hard for me to picture how big 1990 words is. As far as I know, there is no limit on review size, but if you really want someone to read the whole review, you'll keep it reasonable. How about 1999 words to descibe Prince's '1999', what a great album by the way, it's like Kraftwerk with avant-garde gospel vocals on top, but I'm getting off subject now, for shame.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 07:49 |
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^ that is a great album... off topic... but who cares really hahha
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 11:49 |
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Mother said if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
Mother was wrong. I enjoy the privilege of calling an album garbage if I think it's garbage, and I've availed myself of that privilege from time to time. If anyone acquires my work and cares to express an opinion, they should feel free to have at it. My heart doesn't pump Kool-Aid. Regarding drwlf's review, none of the criticism was particularly novel (I've heard these remarks before and have made my peace with them- never was at war with any of them, truth be told). Aside from a few clear factual errors (I, for example, do not use a drum machine), criticizing other reviewers, and questioning how "inbred" Prog Archives is (I'm not altogether sure what that means- what exactly are we "breeding?"), I thought the review itself was decentish.  If you hates it, you hates it.What I don't get, Tony, is this:
None of the "glowing" reviews were reported because they were honest reviews from people who heard the album many times, and what they posted did not violate any of the criteria for reviews. drwlf's review wasn't reported either, really (except by himself, which I think is a little weird, but okay).
So on that note, which reviewers of my album were disingenuous and therefore abusive? Edited by Epignosis - August 15 2009 at 11:53 |
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10618 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 12:00 |
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I probably shouldn't answer for Tony, but I'll probably do lots of other things I shouldn't do today, so what the heck.
I think he is just saying that maybe friends or PA associates that get along would be less inclined to be critical because it is natural to be concerned about a friend's feelings and that although being polite is admirable, it may in the long run not be in your best interest as a developing artist who might need to hear something more critical in able to grow. I'm through here, the rest is up to Tony. P.S. I just thought I'd help out because I know how sensitive Tony can be. 
P.S. P.S. Also, let's not assume all 5 star reviews were written out of 'politeness' (I'm cheating here, I just read Alex's post down below) Edited by Easy Money - August 15 2009 at 12:31 |
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5208 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 12:05 |
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Responding to length of reviews:
I have a goal of 500-1000 words. More than 1000 words is pretty long and I frankly don't read many reviews that long in their entirety. I have a few 300 word reviews (not including my early ones before I was a PR) where I give what I think my unique 2 cents on an album that already has many reviews expressing my general feeling on the album.
1990 is an enormous review. It's hard to maintain someone's interest that long, though it can be done.
The biggest thing is keep practicing. Work on finding a voice that makes your reviews give somebody something they don't find in other reviews. After 100 here, I have a few clunkers, a few I'm really proud of, and unfortunately quite a few informational but bland reviews. I'm working on improving mine so I just gave a couple of the ideas I'm working on myself.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5208 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 12:14 |
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On Epignosis' album reviews. Several folks have asked about which reviews were over the top....MovingPictures, who happens to be the lead reviewer, is over the top. Top 3 Symphonic of all time? Even Robert must have rolled his eyes, thought "I love you to bud," and moved on.
Cacho and Micah's were more balanced.
drwlf's was as others have said, intentionally harsh to counter other reviewers. Which is something we're all tempted to do sometimes, rate based on the fact we think an album's rating is too high or too low, or that there aren't enough of this or that. You can't do that. I've reviewed albums and had to give an honest 4 and move the album's rating the opposite direction I intended. You just have to trust that eventually things will average out appropriately.
Unless you wage a campaign to sabotage with multiple accounts........grrrrr.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008 Location: Beasty Heart Status: Offline Points: 32181 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 12:19 |
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Jay, with all due respect, I am one of the most blunt people you'll ever meet---so I was just as surprised as you that I like Robert's album as much as I do. I'm not one to kiss someone's butt at all; and I've heard the album a good 35 times now. I stand by everything I say in that review as absolute truth in my opinion, regardless of who had made it. Please don't call me out like that. Edited by MovingPictures07 - August 15 2009 at 12:19 |
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 12:29 |
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Alex considers 2009 the best prog year since 1972. We have to respect his opinion.
 (and go laugh in another room  )
Edited by Ricochet - August 15 2009 at 12:35 |
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008 Location: Beasty Heart Status: Offline Points: 32181 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 12:33 |
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I respect everyone else's opinions, and I expect the same from them. I'm really tired of everyone questioning my musical credentials (I know music theory for god's sake---and even if I didn't, it doesn't matter) and implying and outright saying that my opinions are ridiculous. Thanks for being such a supportive friend. I really appreciate it. |
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5208 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 12:38 |
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I tend to have different standards for amateur artists and professional artists. Before I came here, I reviewed hundreds of amateur works and am was a top reviewer on Garageband. I personally don't think this is a great place for a home recording to get valid reviews, as there aren't enough others like it to provide perspective. At first, it's easy to confuse things at first, but when you really A/B things, professional mastering, professional musicians doing their own specific instruments, it's just apples and oranges.It is completely unfair to judge an Amateur artist's work to a professional musician's.
Top 3 Symphonic all time? Not even Robert would claim the album is better than Leftoverture, Song for America, and Point of Know Return. (Just to pick some random albums)
I have a lot of experience and he produced a much better prog than I could produce, hands down. But if you don't want to be called out.....
I suppose opinion is opinion.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 12:40 |
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Not again.  I have edited my post above, and I won't clarify thing more than that. I will also make it my top priority that no one, from this day, ever jokes or uses irony when talking music. Never. |
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008 Location: Beasty Heart Status: Offline Points: 32181 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 12:45 |
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I disagree entirely, and that's just how we view music differently. A professional musician's recording has no more weight than an amateur artist's work in my mind, if it is played well enough and comes from the heart. I don't see it as apples v. oranges at all. In fact, they're both apples in as much as any other two albums are. I personally think if I genuinely evaluate an album that was not "professionally" produced (what the heck does that even mean?) and find more to enjoy in it than most other professionally produced albums in a given sub-genre, then why should I rate it any lower for that reason? If anything, I applaud the person for managing to create such a work of art by himself. It's all music. Who cares? I think it's this attitude that doesn't help the music industry at all, and that's just my opinion. |
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008 Location: Beasty Heart Status: Offline Points: 32181 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 12:47 |
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You know, there's a difference between friendly joking and taking it too far. And with nearly everyone calling me out over the past few weeks, I've frankly become sick of it so much that I'm tempted to leave the site and never come back. All of you, whether kidding or not (and there has been both), have been specifically targeting ONLY me the past month or so with this kind of behavior---as if I'm a joke to not be taken seriously. What kind of community is that? That's what you guys have driven me to consider---and while I probably won't do it, the very fact that it's been driven to that point is shameful. That's all I have to say. |
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 12:48 |
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Now that my previous post was shot down in flames and claimed as insulting, I will be more succinct:
drwlf's review of the album is not abusive; harsh criticism, with words like "awful", "horrible", "hideous", is yet to be declared abusive. The only extreme paragraph is the one about the "inbred ProgArchives". I'd file it as "primary impulse". When the album's very well rated, pushing you to look into it, and you find it mediocre (or worse), you also get dissapointed at the recommendations. Edited by Ricochet - August 15 2009 at 12:49 |
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008 Location: Beasty Heart Status: Offline Points: 32181 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 12:52 |
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It's not the one time, Rico, and I'm not only singling you out---so don't feel that way. It's 20+ times in the past month, a constant occurrence from many different people. And I want it to stop. Last time I checked, most people on here respect most everyone else's opinions. Lately, it seems I have been excluded from that by some people---and I want to know what I have done to warrant it. Either that, it stops, or I leave. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 12:59 |
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No Jay- my album is the best of all time. I shall not rest until it has ousted Close to the Edge, Wish You Were Here, and Thick as a Brick. Seriously though, I'm really...bored, I guess, with talk of "professional" and "amateur" production. Did Nursery Cryme have "professional" production? What about Vapor Trails? Both of those albums have by many standards very crappy production, and yet I feel both of those albums are excellent, if not masterpieces (I only rated the Genesis album a four, but I think it contains a few of the band's greatest songs). Much of the music from The Decemberists sounds rough, but they clearly have their own sound. So on and so forth. I don't care too much for the squeaky clean production a lot of bands employ now anyway, and to be honest, the only people who seem to take it into consideration in a big way are...people who work on music on a technical level. Me? I judge an album by compositions and performance first and foremost. I used this example before: I love Lifehouse. Their first two albums had this homegrown feel to it, with some hissing and grit and whatnot, and I loved it. Now that they've moved "up," they have a latest release that sounds like every pop rock band out there. Every song sounds the same. And as I've mentioned before, I was sitting on and retooling this music for almost four years...there came a point when I just said, "I'm done- here it is." And I like it. I didn't write my album for Prog Archives anyway.  |
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 13:12 |
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Fine. And I applaud that you've woken up to see that people are actually assaulting (your) musical tastes and critical values. But don't signal only yourself out of this whole thing, because it's actually an entire history of jokes, ironies and sarcasms, of which you yourself were many times part. And this happens in all forms, frequently: from two persons with contrasting opinions, resorting to jokes, irony or insults to show the contrast even further, to a chat room like the Shred, who's fueled primarily by this attitude, and the forum itself, where people often can't agree to the let the disagreement flowing. The number of times I've been replied with "fail" for not liking Theusz Hamtaakh has also exploded past 20+ times, and also recently, and also by "many different people" (expecting even more, of course). I've both sticked to what's "absolute truth for me", as you've put it, and to not getting openly furious because of the criticism received. But perhaps I need to write it down in a review, get remembered and frequently poked for that, and finally feel that "enough is enough". If "enough is enough", then enough of everything, under any circumstance. Yes indeed! Let's see how impossible that will turn out to be. |
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Logan wrote: