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Windhawk View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2009 at 04:13

Actually, the old definition had stronger ties grasping back to symphonic than the new one. The opening three paragraphs of the new one are more or less unchanged from the past version; while the latter three replaces paragraphs detailing what was outlined in the first three with descriptions that opens up quite a lot of new ground/new possibilities for the genre. Including what has been coined Nu-prog (sic) by some.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2009 at 04:15
I'd like to thank you for the hard work you have done. I really love to be a part of a community that does such a great favor to what I feel so passionate about. And finally I have a way of reasoning my preferences to my female friends the way they themselves will better understand. Wish I myself had had a part in doing that, though you seem to have managed it all fine yourselves. Nice job guys.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2009 at 12:05
Would the genre get more respect if we found a thousand unknown obscure Neo bands ?
Sometimes I wonder if that's pre-requisite for admittance in to that special club of "artistes" .
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2009 at 22:11
Dear Windhawk and Neo Prog team .

Thanks for this inspiring read - keep up the good work !
Big smile
Progressive x Grooves ..... bridging both styles !
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2009 at 22:33
Originally posted by ProgressivexGrooves ProgressivexGrooves wrote:

Dear Windhawk and Neo Prog team .

Thanks for this inspiring read - keep up the good work !
Big smile


Thanks for the feedback - it is appreciated :-)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 04:51
Utter rubbish I'd say.
Neo-prog is based on early Marillion, and when I say early I mean pre-Misplaced child which was less extreme and more mainstream (ie Pop).
And early Marillion was based on early Genesis, which definately pre-dates 'Trick of the tail'.
I get fed-up hearing Fish/Marillion soundalikes, it's time to move on and thankfully I think we have.
Out of the 'top 20' I can definately say that;-

Galahad - Empires never last
Sylvan - Posthumous silence
Pallas - The dreams of men

...are not Fish/Marillion soundalikes. I know that Magenta and Frost* are equally not, but then again they shouldn't be in the top 20 anyway... (The song Envy by Magenta - from Seven - is an Entangled copy, but despite that it is totally, totally brilliant. Pity about the rest of the album...)
In a way, Marillion shouldn't be in this group. They are the standard that others are aiming for.
Seasons End is by far a better album than any of the copyists have achieved. It doesn't feature in the list...
(Strange, Easter is another Entangled copy. Again though, totally brilliant!)
Okay, you've got it. I'm fed up hearing Fish/Marillion soundalikes. I think that they've held back the genre.

What about The Flower kings?
Because they are labelled as Symphonic Prog they have to mix it with the big boys like Genesis and Yes.
That seems hardly fair, because they are plying their trade in the Neo-Prog era.
Their last two albums, Paradise Hotel and The sum of no evil should definately be in the Neo-Prog top 20 by my reckoning, and V by Spocks Beard too.

Personally, I think that Neo-prog should be represented by bands that took up the Prog mantle in the nineties and noughties, and have taken it to where it is now.
Yes, Entangled is from A trick of the tail, but surely the real flavour of Neo-prog was defined in an era before this.

rumeni.
   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 05:22
Originally posted by sussexbowler sussexbowler wrote:

Personally, I think that Neo-prog should be represented by bands that took up the Prog mantle in the nineties and noughties, and have taken it to where it is now.

rumeni.
   


Personally I'd love to have more of the acts that took up the prog mantle in the 90's and noughties listed as neo - but that isn't my call.

But as for additions to the genre after this revision, you might want to take a listen to Chest Rockwell, Slow Motion Reign and Fractal. I believe we have samples of all the acts on their artists pages here as well.

I can guarantee that you won't find much Fishy or Gabrielly there *s*
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 09:43
Fractal is about as far away from neo-prog as you can get, though. They are not melodic prog in the same way as Marillion-influenced bands. They're much more like King Krimson.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 10:38
No protests from me on that one. Most people seem to think that they should reside in Eclectic; and the Eclectic team here have a standing offer to move the band over to their part of the archives ;-)

For me it is most important that the band is in the databse here though *s*
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 11:21
Eclectic definitely applies to Fractal :-p.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2009 at 17:52
One one hand, I am happy that the support for prog music is there, where would we be without it!
 
But, on the other hand.....the Neo-Prog thing is getting to be a "has to sound like Marillion" genre. This is unhealthy, while flattering to Marillion of course, but Fish, for one, was a great force in continuing prog music in the 80s, not just for himself, but for all prog bands.
 
Why can't we just drop the genres, and just talk about the bands? Especially if they do something new (which is what progressive is supposed to mean)!
 
Or better still, bring back the term Progressive. So 'Prog' would mean bands that sound like they're heavily influenced by what went before, and 'Progressive' would mean bands that are out there, doing something new?
 
But most of all, I don't want to diminish the efforts of those who contribute!
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2009 at 22:16
Originally posted by Quasar Quasar wrote:

But, on the other hand.....the Neo-Prog thing is getting to be a "has to sound like Marillion" genre. This is unhealthy, while flattering to Marillion of course, but Fish, for one, was a great force in continuing prog music in the 80s, not just for himself, but for all prog bands.


Agree. The new Neo definition is actually some giant steps away from that one.

As far as the subgenres are concerned they'll probably stay - we have many and most prog sites operate with even more of them (believe it or not).

They should be thought of as more guides than rules cast in stone though; so that new fans of the genre won't be overly confused by checking out a musical genre containing acts as different as Stanley Clarke, Cynic and Camel - to name but a few contrasting artists :-)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2009 at 02:40
I, for one, am beginning to feel like a piece of meat on the grocery store shelf. Our "prog" music has to be neatly packaged, pre-defined and properly labeled, to meet consumer need, or else no-one will get to hear it.
 
Unhappy
 
We'll never be Yes, Genesis, Rush or....Marillion, etc. They already exist, what's the point?
 
Keith Turner
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2009 at 03:56
I can understand and sympathize with those thoughts. But such categories have always been in place in music as far as I know. It was easier in the 70's of course, although it was somewhat confusing to find out what bands were art rock, prog rock, symphonic rock, pomp, AOR or hard rock.
 
Such subdivisions are really not vital - most people say "I like this music" and don't think about classifications. But the art of getting people to listen to new music in the first place creates a need for some sort of system; so that those looking for new music know where to look to find something there is a chance they will like.
 
And love it or loathe it - I have yet to find a system that works better in the long run than the one we use here; or similar systems used on other music fan sites which are pretty similar to this system. Minor variations of course but the same general theme applies; either in form of pre-defined descriptions or descriptive terms used when a band or an album is presented.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2009 at 00:05
Well, of course, I can't look at it from a prog fans point of view, and I can see that it helps to narrow the search, I do see that. It's probably inevitable that sub-genres appear.
 
But.......it's also (maybe) encouraging listeners to avoid some genres, when there could be something there that they would like?
 
From a bands point of view though, our problem is "who" puts the bands in those genres, I'm fine with bad reviews, after all, any opinion is to encouraged, but we (for example) get called "Neo Prog" all the time, just because we started in 1979 along with Marillion, IQ etc. Which makes me wonder if anyone really listens, and then if prog fans don't go for Neo Prog, they will be discouraged from trying.
 
It's quite common, I know lots of bands who try to get 'out' of the 'box' they've been put in by others. One could argue that the prog fans are the best 'experts' at defining what genre a band is in, as they are more subjective, and in essence it's almost the same as a review, so a band should be happy with that.
 
But it is a bit discouraging sometime to have any prog fans 'put off' from giving a band a chance because of genre classification, and  - (God knows it's hard enough to find the money to continue making albums as it is, as it doesn't come from CD sales that's for sure) - most prog bands spend tens of thousands $ recording every album and any discouragement often hits hard, or do prog fans think we're all living like rock stars (even Marillion), really you all probably make much more that ANY of the prog bands (even Marillion).
 
So how about making as many sub-genres as pleases you, but, put prog bands into all sub-genres that could apply, instead of just one?
 
And....sorry if I sound like I'm whining! LOL! Just trying to put the 'other side' opinion in! I love prog music and have/will always do it even if eveyone hates us. LOL!
 
Keith Turner
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2009 at 03:51
I find that it seems as soon as anything that might basically be considered Neo-Prog maybe toned down the keyboards and plays more mellotron, it's called symphonic prog. Honestly Neo-Prog gets pigeon-holed so much, especially when it's difference from so called "symphonic prog" is tenuous. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2009 at 04:20
Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

I can understand and sympathize with those thoughts. But such categories have always been in place in music as far as I know. It was easier in the 70's of course, although it was somewhat confusing to find out what bands were art rock, prog rock, symphonic rock, pomp, AOR or hard rock.
 
Did it matter to you that the bands were art rock, prog rock, symphonic rock or whatever?
 
Did it make any difference to you liking them or not?
 
Did it make you zone in on the genre you liked and tend to ignore the other genres?
 
Keith Turner
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2009 at 09:25
Originally posted by Quasar Quasar wrote:

Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

I can understand and sympathize with those thoughts. But such categories have always been in place in music as far as I know. It was easier in the 70's of course, although it was somewhat confusing to find out what bands were art rock, prog rock, symphonic rock, pomp, AOR or hard rock.
 
Did it matter to you that the bands were art rock, prog rock, symphonic rock or whatever?
 
Did it make any difference to you liking them or not?
 
Did it make you zone in on the genre you liked and tend to ignore the other genres?
 
Keith Turner


I've never been a person highly preoccupied by genre definitions myself, so I'm probably not the right person to ask *chuckles*

In my youth it was somewhat more important though. Once I had heard music by a band what they were classified as meant zilch for me as such; but for unknown artists it certainly was useful with a genre description and/or comparison to other bands. Typically I'd buy albums by (for me) unknown artists if they were either described as exploring a stylistic variant I generally liked or if they were compared to a band I already fancied.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2009 at 20:25
I don't really get the anti-genre sentiment. Humans have an innate want to categorize things - we've been doing it for centuries - and I think they're much more useful than detrimental. When you say symphonic prog, I have a general idea of what you are discussing. Yes, there are bands that transcend their genre or just flat out switch genres in the middle of their career, but I think those are the exception. Maybe not so much in prog, but in general, bands certainly stick to their genre. I don't see Rascal Flatts or Shania Twain playing anything but pop/country.

Although a tagging system might be better, a la last.fm and progfreak, but it's essentially a more exact system of genres and categorization.


Edited by Kestrel - August 12 2009 at 20:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2009 at 22:13
Originally posted by Kestrel Kestrel wrote:


I don't really get the anti-genre sentiment. Humans have an innate want to categorize things - we've been doing it for centuries - and I think they're much more useful than detrimental. When you say symphonic prog, I have a general idea of what you are discussing. Yes, there are bands that transcend their genre or just flat out switch genres in the middle of their career, but I think those are the exception. Maybe not so much in prog, but in general, bands certainly stick to their genre. I don't see Rascal Flatts or Shania Twain playing anything but pop/country.Although a tagging system might be better, a la last.fm and progfreak, but it's essentially a more exact system of genres and categorization.


This - Imagine going into a CD store without Genre sorting...

On that note, JB HIFI (Australian CD retailer) have the worst genre selections ever!

Marillion in "Heavy metal/Hard rock" in one store, and in "Urban Grooves" in another!? It has to be a joke!

They also put Porcupine Tree in "World Music" in one store and "Popular/top 40" in another, which is literally ridiculous.
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