Prog's not prog.

Nah, LanCaiHe's not a troll, just a bit stranded on a different musical world than us. It's okay, metal is an acquired taste. I don't call my best friend a troll for not liking coffee now, do I? And Lan, you are right about the rite of spring not being ugly. It is just what we conventionally consider to be ugly. Same with metal, I guess. It's more about expressing yourself strongly by casting aside conventional rules in favor of more primal sounds. Both metal and the rite of spring uses dissonance, the octatonic (or just chromatic) scale, instruments in different ways than they were intended, ect. in order to create unease and get adrenaline flowing. That's a bit of an overstatement since I can't speak for all metal, but rather for the essence of "true" metal, but you get my point.

Me thinks me smells a troll!

micky wrote: Nuke wrote: Nah, LanCaiHe's not a troll, just a bit stranded on a different musical world than us. It's okay, metal is an acquired taste. I don't call my best friend a troll for not liking coffee now, do I? And Lan, you are right about the rite of spring not being ugly. It is just what we conventionally consider to be ugly. Same with metal, I guess. It's more about expressing yourself strongly by casting aside conventional rules in favor of more primal sounds. Both metal and the rite of spring uses dissonance, the octatonic (or just chromatic) scale, instruments in different ways than they were intended, ect. in order to create unease and get adrenaline flowing. That's a bit of an overstatement since I can't speak for all metal, but rather for the essence of "true" metal, but you get my point. if you friend went on to a coffee lover's site and started bashing coffee... then he'd be a troll. but the question is... what is a troll haha. A troll has many definitions...  the one we see most around these parts... those that like to take a sh*t on an already steaming pile of crap just for the hell of it.  Trolls are trolls because they have nothing more to say than ... 'X' is crap..  no rhyme no reason given.. that would cross the boundries of trolldom and become real discussion. A troll is one that has nothing positive to add.. and whose every word is a waste of internet bandwidth.  what is a troll in your eyes? hahah. no clue what this thread is about btw...  'prog's not prog'....  let me guess.. the 100th variation of non prog stuff by prog artists.

Truth is, most progressive music nowadays is not prog at all... It's just rehashing ideas and concepts from the 70s. Bands that try to be modern and push the sound forward are condemned as being 'sell outs' because their sound accords with the norm too much.

Seems like that's pretty much the definition on wik:

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response^[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.^[2]

I just thought trolls were mythological creatures, or unattractive old men picking up young boys! LOL    Pretty funny that I would be accused of posting controversial messages just to provoke a response.  I certainly have way better things to do with my time.  I've learned a lot from you and others so far!  

I wouldn't mind having a musical duel with people who accuse me of being a troll.  We could submit our compositions and let people vote on a winner.  LOL   I'm sure they don't have much to offer.  They are probably like people who read about music, but never "do" it actually.   Ah well, to each his own. 

I can't write as well as you when I'm sober! 

Nuke wrote: My personal theory is that a troll is someone who deliberately disrupts the social dynamic for his own amusement or satisfaction. A troll on a liberal website is a douchebag pretending to be a conservative so that he can piss off as many people as he can. A troll on a website full of teenagers is a confrontational one who gets everyone angry at him because there is no one who hilariously overreacts like teens. A troll on a prog website might be someone who poses as an elitist and sees how many suckers he can string along. Anyways, i'm drunk so don't mark these insights as particularly profound and please forgive spelling mistakes...

LanCaiHe wrote: Pretty funny that I would be accused of posting controversial messages just to provoke a response.  I certainly have way better things to do with my time.  I've learned a lot from you and others so far!

Yeah, the rite of spring has a really strong pull on both prog and metal fans. I've loved this song sice before I was either a prog fan or a metal fan, and look what happened!  You're right about King Crimson predicting a lot of metal. Heck, larks tongus in aspic part 2 is metal, and by that I mean it should have been written in the 80's. 21st century schizoid man had the sort of yelling thing with dissonant chords going on too, way early. That's what I love about king crimson, they predicted prog rock, metal, and math rock. That's three genres, and if we include fripp's other work, we can add ambient to that list too! I'd better stop now though because I am a hopeless king crimson fan and could worship them forever 

And lol, I love the glam signature! Glam is so ridiculous I think the only thing we can do is laugh at it. Of course, who am I to talk? I like a band where the lead singer used to dress up in a flower costume! Speaking of music battles, where could I hear some of this music you've created? I write music on apple garageband for fun myself, but since it's apple garageband it is never really good. I just tried my hand at a metal song for the first time this month, and my growls are ferocious man! RAWR 

LanCaiHe wrote: A Flower?? There could only be one man like that, at least I hope only one!

See, and it's the time signature thing that really bugs me.  I love odd time signatures, or, I should probably say that when I make up stuff it ends up most of the time being in an odd time signature and you simply cannot execute it on Garageband much of the time unless you do it free style, but then you cant quantize it.  LOL 

Nuke wrote: That is a strange coincidence. I'm downloading logic as we speak. I got tired of garageband's limits so I decided logic is the way to go. Transmission tells me however that I have 3 more days to wait. Let me know how logic goes for you. I'm hoping it can boost my production to match my creativity, because right now I've got a bunch of innovative songs that sound like crap  What's your favorite time signature? (I'm a 5/4 man myself) LanCaiHe wrote: Yes, I love Crimson as well, always have, probably always will.  A Flower?? There could only be one man like that, at least I hope only one! Garageband is definitely not to be underestimated.   There is nothing bad about it except maybe it's editing cababilities are poor, and the only thing that really bothers me about it is that you cannot switch time sigs so easily.  I'm learning Logic now.  Computers confuse me, since I wasn't born after 1980.  They say that people born after 1980 actually think differently than those born before.  I think it's true for the most part.    Garageband also has some extremely realistic sounds on it that I have not been able to find on expensive synths.  I had to lug my computer to the recording studio a few weeks ago because I simply could not find a realistic harp patch on any of my synths or at the music store.    Grrrrrrr!

Nuke wrote: Anyways, I don't think cynic and athiest should have been considered prog metal since they only went back to jazz (and new age electronica for cynic). They are so insanely creative and technical though, that it was bound to get added despite lacking the lineage. They are an example of what I am talking about. We either ought to open the floodgates or close them. Either all progressive and forward thinking rock music is prog, or only something somehow from the lineages established in the 70s. I hate this in-between state we have going on.

This. I said something like this on another thread - i think we need to accept all progressive music whether we like it or not. Pop fans don't say a song they don't like isn't pop simply because they don't like it or it doesn't go with their standards of pop.

I'm sorry, but people who listen to pop music don't normally make the choice to listen to pop.  That is all they've ever heard, because that is all the radio has ever played.  People who listen to pop don't analyze the songs, they either say, I like that, or I don't like that.  Usually if they say they don't like that they will eventually say I like that after the radio station has played it about a million more times. LOL   I think that all of us as people who listen to Prog, have a much higher and evolved standard of listening because we ventured out beyond what has been pounded into our heads by the commercial music industry. 

MaxerJ wrote: Nuke wrote: Anyways, I don't think cynic and athiest should have been considered prog metal since they only went back to jazz (and new age electronica for cynic). They are so insanely creative and technical though, that it was bound to get added despite lacking the lineage. They are an example of what I am talking about. We either ought to open the floodgates or close them. Either all progressive and forward thinking rock music is prog, or only something somehow from the lineages established in the 70s. I hate this in-between state we have going on. This. I said something like this on another thread - i think we need to accept all progressive music whether we like it or not. Pop fans don't say a song they don't like isn't pop simply because they don't like it or it doesn't go with their standards of pop.