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rushfan4 
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Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66262
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 Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:32 |
 StyLaZyn wrote:
[QUOTE=markosherrera]You can not fault an entire religion because of the misguided decisions of their leaders. Men who use religion for conquest are simply doing so out of selfishness.
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As true as this statement is, religion is a tool that has been used throughout history for this exact reason. There is something to be said about an establishment whose leaders are consistently to blame for making these misguided decisions. I know the saying is that "money is the root of all evil", but I have always felt that religion is a close second. That being said, I also agree with the cliche that "you can't let a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch". Throughout history there have been many bad apples "representing" God with their misguided decisions, but there have been just as many, if not more, who truly believe and have faith and do and say what they say for truly moral purposes.
This being said, I don't wish to soil Rob's Christian thread with arguments like the above, as I believe Rob to be a good apple, and his purpose for this thread serves his personal purposes. Although, now that I think about it, it might all be part of his evil plan to rule the world. 
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
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Points: 32524
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:36 |
rushfan4 wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
[QUOTE=markosherrera]You can not fault an entire religion because of the misguided decisions of their leaders. Men who use religion for conquest are simply doing so out of selfishness.
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As true as this statement is, religion is a tool that has been used throughout history for this exact reason. There is something to be said about an establishment whose leaders are consistently to blame for making these misguided decisions. I know the saying is that "money is the root of all evil", but I have always felt that religion is a close second. That being said, I also agree with the cliche that "you can't let a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch". Throughout history there have been many bad apples "representing" God with their misguided decisions, but there have been just as many, if not more, who truly believe and have faith and do and say what they say for truly moral purposes.
This being said, I don't wish to soil Rob's Christian thread with arguments like the above, as I believe Rob to be a good apple, and his purpose for this thread serves his personal purposes. Although, now that I think about it, it might all be part of his evil plan to rule the world. |
Mark 13:6 comes to mind.
[Jesus said] "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:40 |
rushfan4 wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
[QUOTE=markosherrera]You can not fault an entire religion because of the misguided decisions of their leaders. Men who use religion for conquest are simply doing so out of selfishness.
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As true as this statement is, religion is a tool that has been used throughout history for this exact reason. There is something to be said about an establishment whose leaders are consistently to blame for making these misguided decisions. I know the saying is that "money is the root of all evil", but I have always felt that religion is a close second. That being said, I also agree with the cliche that "you can't let a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch". Throughout history there have been many bad apples "representing" God with their misguided decisions, but there have been just as many, if not more, who truly believe and have faith and do and say what they say for truly moral purposes.
This being said, I don't wish to soil Rob's Christian thread with arguments like the above, as I believe Rob to be a good apple, and his purpose for this thread serves his personal purposes. Although, now that I think about it, it might all be part of his evil plan to rule the world. |
Here's where human character comes into play and the famous saying "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Sometimes even the most humble and devout can fall victim to enticements that power brings.
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markosherrera
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2006
Location: World
Status: Offline
Points: 3252
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:42 |
For me the religions and priests many time invades the politic ,and this is the problem
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Hi progmaniacs of all the world
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Slartibartfast
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Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:44 |
Epignosis wrote:
Mark 13:6 comes to mind.
[Jesus said] "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." |
Well put and quite true.
Edited by Slartibartfast - July 24 2009 at 11:49
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66262
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:48 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Mark 13:6 comes to mind.
[Jesus said] "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." |
Well put and quite true.
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To which the skeptic in me says "how do you know that the Jesus that said those words was the true Christ, and not a deceptive one?"
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:50 |
markosherrera wrote:
For me the religions and priests many time invades the politic ,and this is the problem |
Separation of Church and State. Always! Religion should remain personal.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:51 |
rushfan4 wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Mark 13:6 comes to mind.
[Jesus said] "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." |
Well put and quite true.
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To which the skeptic in me says "how do you know that the Jesus that said those words was the true Christ, and not a deceptive one?" |
Well, he is quoted as saying many things that the religious right ignores so therefore I think he was on the right track. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - July 24 2009 at 12:38
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66262
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:52 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
markosherrera wrote:
For me the religions and priests many time invades the politic ,and this is the problem |
Separation of Church and State. Always! Religion should remain personal.
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i.e. put up a Holiday Tree instead of a Christmas Tree. 
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:52 |
rushfan4 wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Mark 13:6 comes to mind.
[Jesus said] "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." |
Well put and quite true.
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To which the skeptic in me says "how do you know that the Jesus that said those words was the true Christ, and not a deceptive one?" |
I wouldn't doubt Jesus said this. Based on the written story of his life, it fits. He was very intelligent and in tune with the ways of man. He saw that man would use guise his personal gain under the veil of something seemingly innocent. Saying Jesus was deceptive doesn't match his message, which was IMO, Buddhism with a God.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:53 |
rushfan4 wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
markosherrera wrote:
For me the religions and priests many time invades the politic ,and this is the problem |
Separation of Church and State. Always! Religion should remain personal.
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i.e. put up a Holiday Tree instead of a Christmas Tree. |
Agreed! 
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:57 |
Interesting but not well known, there's a verse in the Old Testament that says the Christmas tree is an abomination. Jeremiah 10:1-5 about this:
"Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, o
house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord, learn not the ways of
the heathen and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven;
for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs
of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the
forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the
ax. They deck it with silver and with gold: they fasten
it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They
are "upright" as the palm tree, but speak not: they must
needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of
them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them
to do good.
"What if christmas didnt come this year
And no one paid for christmas cheer?
Who would cry the big"gest tear,
The child or the store? - Primus
Edited by Slartibartfast - July 24 2009 at 12:01
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:59 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Interesting but not well known, there's a verse in the Old Testament that says the Christmas tree is an abomination.
Jeremiah 10:1-5 about this:
"Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, o
house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord, learn not the ways of
the heathen and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven;
for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs
of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the
forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the
ax. They deck it with silver and with gold: they fasten
it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They
are "upright" as the palm tree, but speak not: they must
needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of
them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them
to do good. |
We put plastic on ours.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 12:02 |
Ours is an artificial metal one with the lights already incorporated, so I guess it's OK.  The lights actually help warm up the living room. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - July 24 2009 at 12:05
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 12:02 |
By the way, what Jeremiah was prophesying against is nothing remotely close to our modern day Christmas trees, but likely described the worship of Asherah. Just FYI. 
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 12:06 |
Epignosis wrote:
By the way, what Jeremiah was prophesying against is nothing remotely close to our modern day Christmas trees, but likely described the worship of Asherah. Just FYI.
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Hey, my last Christian involvement was with the Worldwide Church Of God, so take it as you will. I was kind of surprised to find out that Garner Ted Armstrong had died. He'd split off from the WCOG a while ago... But, are you arguing that intent overrides practice?
Edited by Slartibartfast - July 24 2009 at 12:23
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 12:18 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
By the way, what Jeremiah was prophesying against is nothing remotely close to our modern day Christmas trees, but likely described the worship of Asherah. Just FYI.
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Hey, my last Christian involvement was with the Worldwide Church Of God, so take it as you will. I was kind of surprised to find out that Garner Ted Armstrong had died. He'd split off from the WCOG a while ago...
But, are you arguing that intent overrides practice?
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I wasn't aware I was arguing anything.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 12:23 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: July 24 2009 at 12:29 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
By the way, what Jeremiah was prophesying against is nothing remotely close to our modern day Christmas trees, but likely described the worship of Asherah. Just FYI.
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Hey, my last Christian involvement was with the Worldwide Church Of God, so take it as you will. I was kind of surprised to find out that Garner Ted Armstrong had died. He'd split off from the WCOG a while ago...
But, are you arguing that intent overrides practice?
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I wasn't aware I was arguing anything.
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Poor choice of word, do you believe that intent overrides practice? If you are practicing something that the Bible says is an abomination is it OK as long as your intent isn't pagan?
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Oh, I think I misunderstood what you were saying.
I really don't believe you can practice an abomination with a good intent (insofar as the Bible defines both "abomination" and "good.")...I'm trying to think of a specific instance that might be an exception, but I am coming up short.
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LandofLein
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 02 2009
Location: Temecula, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 214
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Posted: August 02 2009 at 00:41 |
rushfan4 wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
markosherrera wrote:
For me the religions and priests many time invades the politic ,and this is the problem |
Separation of Church and State. Always! Religion should remain personal.
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i.e. put up a Holiday Tree instead of a Christmas Tree. |
or like me, a Festivus pole!!
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