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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2009 at 10:03

Psalm 139

For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.
 1 O LORD, you have searched me
       and you know me.

 2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
       you perceive my thoughts from afar.

 3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
       you are familiar with all my ways.

 4 Before a word is on my tongue
       you know it completely, O LORD.

 5 You hem me in—behind and before;
       you have laid your hand upon me.

 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
       too lofty for me to attain.


What an amazing notion- that my God knows his creation and his design so thoroughly that my next remark or activity he is already aware of.  Nothing I ever do surprises him.  He knows when I will speak encouragingly and with love, and he knows when I will speak with venom and hurtfulness.


 7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
       Where can I flee from your presence?

 8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
       if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

 9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
       if I settle on the far side of the sea,

 10 even there your hand will guide me,
       your right hand will hold me fast.

 11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
       and the light become night around me,"

 12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
       the night will shine like the day,
       for darkness is as light to you.

There is nowhere I can go to be away from God.  This thought that begins as a terrifying idea becomes one of comfort as soon my relationship with God changes from one of enmity to one of adoption and gentle care.  While I once feared God would know all my wrong deeds and despise me, I now take comfort in knowing that he is always there to correct me, and is always available every time I am tempted and tried.


 13 For you created my inmost being;
       you knit me together in my mother's womb.

 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
       your works are wonderful,
       I know that full well.

 15 My frame was not hidden from you
       when I was made in the secret place.
       When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

 16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
       All the days ordained for me
       were written in your book
       before one of them came to be.

When my little son was born, the nurses had to take him to another room for a short while, and I attended him.  I asked for a Bible and read him this passage, and I plan to read it to every child I have as soon as he or she is born.  During the nine months we could not see our boy (though my wife could feel his movements), the Master was busy at work crafting not just an amazing physical specimen, but also every single day my son would live through- every scrape, bruise, broken bone, tear and crushed spirit is written in God's book, but so is every glory, hope, joy, dream and achievement.  God is a master craftsman who completes every work.


 17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
       How vast is the sum of them!

 18 Were I to count them,
       they would outnumber the grains of sand.
       When I awake,
       I am still with you.

What a majestic thought, that the Creator and Overseer of the universe thinks of me (and you)!  His thoughts toward us outnumber the sands on the ocean.  While we so seldom think of God, he never ceases thinking of us.  Whenever I am in need, I am on his mind.  Whenever I am joyful, I am on his mind.  Whenever I behave immorally, even then am I on his mind.  Again, this constant attention would have alarmed me as someone caught up in sin, but as a child of God, I know I need his watchful eye at all times.


 19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God!
       Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!

 20 They speak of you with evil intent;
       your adversaries misuse your name.

 21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,
       and abhor those who rise up against you?

 22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
       I count them my enemies.


God is certainly a God of love, but he is a God of holiness first, and his patience only extends so far.  The psalmist here is grieved that God is slow in demonstrating his wrath and sweeping up and destroying the wicked in one swift wave of his hand.  When we become holier through the cleansing of God, over time, those who speak ill of God or those who ignore his commands will hurt our hearts more, and rightfully anger us.  Yet Peter writes this:

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9). 

But before we are quick to ask God to crush all evil, we must consider the final words of the psalm...

 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
       test me and know my anxious thoughts.

 24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
       and lead me in the way everlasting.


That should be on a Christian's lips every morning: "Lord, show me where my shortcomings are- show me what aspects of my life stink to you."  But know that God will be faithful in doing this!  And then we must be ready and willing to deal with it when God exposes our bad behaviors to us.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2009 at 19:51
when I was still a christian I'm really scared about the fiction of hell. But I think the church is saying the truth  that there is a hell below  only that there are no demons or something..LOLLOLLOLLOL
The planet is fine the people are f**ked.
-George Carlin-
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2009 at 20:02
I honestly do not know if there is an afterlife.
My gut instinct is no.
However, if there is a heaven and hell...I try to live a good life. I do not go to church and does not do "the work of Christ" and sin....(as the church feels of course). But I am not a bigot, I give change to people on the street/to a foundation/local fire station...whatever. I try to be good to everyone, I help put even when I have nothing to gain. Then I know people who go to church every sunday yet are racist, will be the first to throw you under the bus, will cut you off, that care about only themselves.

I think I'm a good person...so I hope, IF there is a heaven they will think me worthy.
But if not and I go to Hell........well I lived my life how I thought best. And if that's my fate so be it.

So, I ask all of you. In your honest opinion, no bullsh*tting here:
Would God take an Atheist, or non believer, who is good over a devout, every day Christian who is bad?
(And I know "good" and "bad" are tough to explain so if needed use my statements above)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2009 at 20:51
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


So, I ask all of you. In your honest opinion, no bullsh*tting here:
Would God take an Atheist, or non believer, who is good over a devout, every day Christian who is bad?
(And I know "good" and "bad" are tough to explain so if needed use my statements above)


See, therein lies the problem.  How does God define good and evil?  The God of the Bible (my God) is actually very clear about it.  I can make up my own morality all I want, but if I break a law here, the cops will arrest and book me, and I will have to answer to the judge.  God is no different...except in one respect.

Being good isn't the same as being nice or unoffensive or helping people...those things may be a small part of it, but they aren't it.  That's a worldly definition of "good." 

By God's definition, there is no one who is good, not one.  I am no better than Hitler before the Judge of the World.

Christians are only declared to be good because they fall at the feet of a merciful judge.  That's it.  We're all guilty of evil.  But those who repent and ask God's forgiveness will be cleansed and changed over time into someone who will be blameless in the end (that is God's promise).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2009 at 20:59
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


So, I ask all of you. In your honest opinion, no bullsh*tting here:
Would God take an Atheist, or non believer, who is good over a devout, every day Christian who is bad?
(And I know "good" and "bad" are tough to explain so if needed use my statements above)


See, therein lies the problem.  How does God define good and evil?  The God of the Bible (my God) is actually very clear about it.  I can make up my own morality all I want, but if I break a law here, the cops will arrest and book me, and I will have to answer to the judge.  God is no different...except in one respect.

Being good isn't the same as being nice or unoffensive or helping people...those things may be a small part of it, but they aren't it.  That's a worldly definition of "good." 

By God's definition, there is no one who is good, not one.  I am no better than Hitler before the Judge of the World.

Christians are only declared to be good because they fall at the feet of a merciful judge.  That's it.  We're all guilty of evil.  But those who repent and ask God's forgiveness will be cleansed and changed over time into someone who will be blameless in the end (that is God's promise).


So in not so many words....Yes, I will go to hell.
Seriously dude, you could've just said it. Been said to me MANY a time already LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2009 at 23:59
Wow...that's a bit scary.Big smile
The planet is fine the people are f**ked.
-George Carlin-
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 00:39
I have not yet read the Bible, sorry to say.  Hopefully I will very soon

I have a couple questions that could be answered here however, so here they are

What are your opinions on life after death?
What is the best way to help humanity at the present time? (i.e. unity)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 01:31
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


So, I ask all of you. In your honest opinion, no bullsh*tting here:
Would God take an Atheist, or non believer, who is good over a devout, every day Christian who is bad?
(And I know "good" and "bad" are tough to explain so if needed use my statements above)


See, therein lies the problem.  How does God define good and evil?  The God of the Bible (my God) is actually very clear about it.  I can make up my own morality all I want, but if I break a law here, the cops will arrest and book me, and I will have to answer to the judge.  God is no different...except in one respect.

Being good isn't the same as being nice or unoffensive or helping people...those things may be a small part of it, but they aren't it.  That's a worldly definition of "good." 

By God's definition, there is no one who is good, not one.  I am no better than Hitler before the Judge of the World.

Christians are only declared to be good because they fall at the feet of a merciful judge.  That's it.  We're all guilty of evil.  But those who repent and ask God's forgiveness will be cleansed and changed over time into someone who will be blameless in the end (that is God's promise).


So in not so many words....Yes, I will go to hell.
Seriously dude, you could've just said it. Been said to me MANY a time already LOL


Hell, despite what many conservatives would have you believe, is NOT "Fire and Darkness" in the literal sense.

For one thing, if the fire and darkness were literal, they would cancel each other out. This description was merely a way of describing what it will feel like to be cut off from God forever (which in essence is exactly what Hell is; the complete, eternal absence of God). You may not believe in God now, but His presence still fuels the world around you whether you know it or not. You have never known a world without God's presence in it, trust me.

Secondly, if you go to hell for not believing in God, you are merely getting what you want, correct? If you see your life without God right now, then after you leave this world, you will simply continue that way.

Heaven is for people who believe in and love God.
Hell is for the opposite.

Either way, you're getting your heart's true desire. The Bible says non-believers would rather 'reign in Hell than serve in Heaven' , if I remember correctly, so God merely obliges. Here we are now back on the whole free will argument. God chooses not force us to follow Him, so He gives us the choice to either accept or deny Him, and whichever path we choose, our destination is giving us exactly what we want; what we have chosen of our own free will.

To me, nothing could be more just or loving.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 05:08
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


So, I ask all of you. In your honest opinion, no bullsh*tting here:
Would God take an Atheist, or non believer, who is good over a devout, every day Christian who is bad?
(And I know "good" and "bad" are tough to explain so if needed use my statements above)


See, therein lies the problem.  How does God define good and evil?  The God of the Bible (my God) is actually very clear about it.  I can make up my own morality all I want, but if I break a law here, the cops will arrest and book me, and I will have to answer to the judge.  God is no different...except in one respect.

Being good isn't the same as being nice or unoffensive or helping people...those things may be a small part of it, but they aren't it.  That's a worldly definition of "good." 

By God's definition, there is no one who is good, not one.  I am no better than Hitler before the Judge of the World.

Christians are only declared to be good because they fall at the feet of a merciful judge.  That's it.  We're all guilty of evil.  But those who repent and ask God's forgiveness will be cleansed and changed over time into someone who will be blameless in the end (that is God's promise).


So in not so many words....Yes, I will go to hell.
Seriously dude, you could've just said it. Been said to me MANY a time already LOL


Ask anyone around here and you will know I do not necessarily hold all traditional beliefs.

Westerners think of God's judgment in terms of pain and torture because that is the worst thing they can think of.

Middle Easterners had a very different idea of judgment.  Pain may be a constituent of it, but shame and being separated from God is the ultimate penalty.


Edited by Epignosis - July 23 2009 at 05:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 07:35
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I honestly do not know if there is an afterlife.
...


The only thing that makes me question the afterlife is the existence of ghosts.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 12:10
Thanks Rob and Micah

And again I have no basis to support this claim, just my gut instinct:
I'd imagine heaven is not "anything" it would be what is paradise to YOU.
Likewise hell is not fiery and all that, but rather what would be to torture to YOU.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 19:24
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Thanks Rob and Micah

And again I have no basis to support this claim, just my gut instinct:
I'd imagine heaven is not "anything" it would be what is paradise to YOU.
Likewise hell is not fiery and all that, but rather what would be to torture to YOU.




Well, while this is also merely my own opinion, I wouldn't say you were too far off on that analogy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 19:55
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I honestly do not know if there is an afterlife.
...


The only thing that makes me question the afterlife is the existence of ghosts.



Are there really ghosts??I've never seen one....Confused
The planet is fine the people are f**ked.
-George Carlin-
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2009 at 10:59
Post edited.


Edited by Epignosis - July 24 2009 at 11:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:05
I'm still a teenager and I recently made my confirmation into the catholic church. There are just many things I wonder about and sometimes worry about.

When we die is there really an afterlife? Could there be an apocalypse in my lifetime?

If someone (Robert I'm pointing at you) could share their thoughts about these topics please shareThumbs Up

Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:09
One thing is believe in God or afterlife other are the religions that many times kill in the name of God
Hi progmaniacs of all the world
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:13
I worship God, but I also believe in syntax...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:20
Originally posted by markosherrera markosherrera wrote:

One thing is believe in God or afterlife other are the religions that many times kill in the name of God


Those that would kill in the name of God, exploit holy words. I'm not a believer, but all men are human, whether clergy or otherwise. This means they fall victim to human weaknesses. You can not fault an entire religion because of the misguided decisions of their leaders. Men who use religion for conquest are simply doing so out of selfishness.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:25
Originally posted by progrocker2244 progrocker2244 wrote:

I'm still a teenager and I recently made my confirmation into the catholic church. There are just many things I wonder about and sometimes worry about.

When we die is there really an afterlife? Could there be an apocalypse in my lifetime?

If someone (Robert I'm pointing at you) could share their thoughts about these topics please shareThumbs Up


As I mentioned in another post, I have somewhat of a different view regarding the afterlife that many purists may ridicule me for, but my beliefs come from careful study of Scripture, not tradition.

I believe that when we die, we take a dirt nap, so to speak.  I do not believe we have immortal souls or intangible spirits, or some part of us that immediately exits the body on death and goes to Heaven or Hell.  One extra-biblical argument I use for this is to say that if my eyes were suddenly gouged out, I would not be able to see...but if I had a spirit that survived this physical body, wouldn't I still be able to see?

Now take all this with a grain of salt, because I could be wrong here.  If we die and immediately go to Heaven, that's perfectly fine with me, I just don't believe that's how it happens.  If we die and wind up in the ground for a while, fine- I could use the beauty sleep.  Smile

I believe that in the final days (per Revelation), the dead will be resurrected and judged.  God will not show us a movie of our lives (as some think), but we will be judged based solely on this: Do we belong to Christ?  If you are Christ's disciple, you are with him for eternity, where God glorifies Himself by dumping kindness on you forever.  If you do not belong to Christ (if you did not repent of your sins and accept his sacrifice), you will be destroyed and that's that.

I personally do not believe in an "everlasting fiery torment" as tradition states; I think the punishment of evil has more to do with being put to shame...you see, the reward for those who are Christ's is being honored with Christ, not feeling a constant physical euphoria (the opposite of physical torment), so I think the ultimate punishment for those who are not his is being put to shame (which could certainly entail physical pain and I believe it does, just not eternal physical pain).

Regarding when all this will happen, I can never say.  The Bible says even Jesus himself does not know the day or time of his return, but it could certainly happen in your lifetime.

I hope this helps...and again, take what I say in this post with a grain of salt or the whole Morton company if you wish.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:31
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by progrocker2244 progrocker2244 wrote:

I'm still a teenager and I recently made my confirmation into the catholic church. There are just many things I wonder about and sometimes worry about.

When we die is there really an afterlife? Could there be an apocalypse in my lifetime?

If someone (Robert I'm pointing at you) could share their thoughts about these topics please shareThumbs Up


As I mentioned in another post, I have somewhat of a different view regarding the afterlife that many purists may ridicule me for, but my beliefs come from careful study of Scripture, not tradition.

I believe that when we die, we take a dirt nap, so to speak.  I do not believe we have immortal souls or intangible spirits, or some part of us that immediately exits the body on death and goes to Heaven or Hell.  One extra-biblical argument I use for this is to say that if my eyes were suddenly gouged out, I would not be able to see...but if I had a spirit that survived this physical body, wouldn't I still be able to see?

Now take all this with a grain of salt, because I could be wrong here.  If we die and immediately go to Heaven, that's perfectly fine with me, I just don't believe that's how it happens.  If we die and wind up in the ground for a while, fine- I could use the beauty sleep.  Smile

I believe that in the final days (per Revelation), the dead will be resurrected and judged.  God will not show us a movie of our lives (as some think), but we will be judged based solely on this: Do we belong to Christ?  If you are Christ's disciple, you are with him for eternity, where God glorifies Himself by dumping kindness on you forever.  If you do not belong to Christ (if you did not repent of your sins and accept his sacrifice), you will be destroyed and that's that.

I personally do not believe in an "everlasting fiery torment" as tradition states; I think the punishment of evil has more to do with being put to shame...you see, the reward for those who are Christ's is being honored with Christ, not feeling a constant physical euphoria (the opposite of physical torment), so I think the ultimate punishment for those who are not his is being put to shame (which could certainly entail physical pain and I believe it does, just not eternal physical pain).

Regarding when all this will happen, I can never say.  The Bible says even Jesus himself does not know the day or time of his return, but it could certainly happen in your lifetime.

I hope this helps...and again, take what I say in this post with a grain of salt or the whole Morton company if you wish.


Thanks for your helpThumbs Up

Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime
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