For my Libertarian friends

manofmystery wrote:   "It is obvious that in unhampered labor markets, wages (at least for some occupations) would be lowered as a result of free competition. Changing demand conditions and technical advances make some occupations obsolete. The workers in those sectors either have to re-educate themselves to be able to perform different tasks, or become unemployable at a certain wage level. Market dynamics force nearly everyone to readjust from time to time—few are spared these painful changes. But refusing to carry out this readjustment by using government coercion only creates opportunities for the foreign workers willing to work for much less then their American counterparts."

I'm fine with that as long as re-education is possible as possibly government subsidized.

JJLehto wrote: Here's what I think part of the problem is...paranoia. I do understand where it is coming from, but I don't want some dictatorship, or even government run companies, just some rules/regulations whatever needs to be done to stop the from acting irresponsibly. I assume the response would be "its a slippery road to communism" or "once their is power they will become a dictatorship" all that fun stuff. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What if murdering people makes me happy? Can I do that? Less extreme, if someone is made happy be stealing, can they just rob anyone because it's their right? If a CEO finds happiness in making ever cent he can, should he be allowed to?  Sure. What  if it means screwing people? I don't want to limit profits, take money, run the company...just stop abuse. Isn't that why there are laws prohibiting murder/theft and punishments for those who break them? Or, is this just the price we have to pay for freedom?

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" aren't "inalienable rights" despite what numerous documents state.  We execute felons, imprison criminals, and...well, you are free to pursue happiness all you like.  No guarantees you shall find it.

I do not oppose any and all governmental restrictions on business, particularly when public safety is at risk.  But that comes with the territory of national security and public health, not making sure everybody has a job or money in his pocket.

Why is it liberals are content to demand strict governmental regulations on producers?  Why not control the economy by imposing strict regulations on consumers?  Think of it:  You get a list from the government telling you what brand of waffles you must buy.  What brand of razors.  What brand of beer.  What make of car.  What brand of tampons.  What brand of computer.  What websites you can visit and when.  Surely that would do it and keep people employed! 

JJLehto wrote: Yes, and if people like you Rob were running things than that'd be fine, but you know full well greed and the all mighty dollar are in power. How many people on top love liberty more than wealth? Not many I'd guess. You know it's true Rob. Hey, believe it or not I'm no socialist, I like money, I like profit, it's good to have a good living. What I don't like is greed, and I bet you'd agree. If people could be trusted then I'd say f*ck the government. But over the course of time, and more recently in cases we can see, why do you want a totally unregulated private sector? It has caused nothing but trouble. At least greed used to be long run and that greed helped some other people....now greed is short run, and no one top helps anyone but themselves. The risk, and trouble is passed on to us. Manipulating markets, yadda yadda, Rob you know this is NOT true capitalism. Yet, you want to just let it go on? For the name of freedom? It is nice and all, but until the day can come that people can use freedom responibly I want some damn protection because ya know, I'd rather not get screwed over and just accept it as is.

No, what we have here isn't quite capitalism. 

That said, when you start pulling freedoms away from people because they "[can't] use freedom [responsibly]," then you are starting down a very dark and, need I say, interesting alley of governmental "protections."

Yes, and if people like you Rob were running things than that'd be fine, but you know full well greed and the all mighty dollar are in power. How many people on top love liberty more than wealth? Not many I'd guess.

You know it's true Rob.

Hey, believe it or not I'm no socialist, I like money, I like profit, it's good to have a good living. What I don't like is greed, and I bet you'd agree. If people could be trusted then I'd say f*ck the government. But over the course of time, and more recently in cases we can see, why do you want a totally unregulated private sector?

It has caused nothing but trouble.
At least greed used to be long run and that greed helped some other people....now greed is short run, and no one top helps anyone but themselves. The risk, and trouble is passed on to us. Manipulating markets, yadda yadda, Rob you know this is NOT true capitalism. Yet, you want to just let it go on? For the name of freedom? It is nice and all, but until the day can come that people can use freedom responibly I want some damn protection because ya know, I'd rather not get screwed over and just accept it as is.


Edited by JJLehto - June 23 2010 at 18:01

JJLehto wrote: I would like to laugh Rob, except were are 90% certain my moms job is next... I am posing a serious question though, someone justify to me why my father, a good ol American workaholic, model employee, never put up a fuss...getting his job cut. And if my mother was to go, that's 2 unemployed parents...no wonder jobs aren't recovering with the economy, their will be no f*cking jobs! Manufacturing has left the US, replaced with white collar office jobs and tech, if those go overseas, what the f*ck is left?

I lost my job too.  I eventually found a different one. 

Yes, my comment to you was in jest, but when you (as many liberals do) throw an anecdote at us and tell us to do this or that with it...sorry- not interested. 

I could say people die from automobile accidents a lot, so we should make driving illegal.  But that would be foolish.

I would like to laugh Rob, except were are 90% certain my moms job is next...


I am posing a serious question though, someone justify to me why my father, a good ol American workaholic, model employee, never put up a fuss...getting his job cut. And if my mother was to go, that's 2 unemployed parents...no wonder jobs aren't recovering with the economy, their will be no f*cking jobs!
Manufacturing has left the US, replaced with white collar office jobs and tech, if those go overseas, what the f*ck is left?

34 years at his company, and my dad got laid off not too long ago. And he was a model employee, loved by everyone there, and workaholic. Far back as I remember he's worked overtime and often on weekends.
And this is the thanks he gets?

The companies doing fine too, we found out the spot's been outsourced....


Libertarians, or anyone, give me one good reason why outsourcing should not be outlawed!
I don't want ideological BS either, the main source of income in my family now gone, my brothers college is now postponed, my post grad plans shot.....all because that American job can be shipped elsewhere for less. And thank god my mom works at the same company, otherwise bye bye health coverage!
So, justify it to me...

Now that one is actually funny Brian

Leningrad wrote: I think all capitalists should be arrested, each and every one of them

micky wrote: JJLehto wrote: micky wrote: are you seriously even confusing the immoral nature of slavery... with illegal immigration. sorry man....  not in the same boat... not in the same ocean.. not in the sphere of logic. you want to bring illegal immigration and slavery into the same conversation. why is immigration restricted..... fear... by bigots.  Spare me the f**king economics.. if immigration wasn't made so difficult.. those people would now be citizens.. and paying taxes. It's true. People can come up with ALL the justification they need....but it really is bigotry. I mean let's take the most current example...mexicans. The whole "taking jobs" thing is unfair because as we've said it's the employers fault....no one can fault the immigrant, if I had to support my family I would do the same. So I could UNDERSTAND a gripe if you lost a job to an immigrant, but outside that....it is xenophobia. Don't give me the "degradation of our culture" bullsh*t. What is our "culture" I know our culture is one of immigrants... I also love the "we need to wall off the border for security reasons! Stop terrorists from entering!" Even though the terrorists entered through Canada.... And I won't say who, you can look it up, but earlier I saw the comment "the founding fathers didn't expect us to be over run by immigrants" OVER RUN BY IMMIGRANTS!? We are all immigrants, unless you are a full blooded native americans. So yea, we are over run by immigrants....starting with the first few from England. I'm f*cking done with this. I can not believe some things I've read in this thread. I'll leave with this: Anyone who wants to round up and deport all the illegal mexicans and build a wall...you better volunteer to build the f*cking thing. Especially considering the main labor force for it will be in Mexico.... hahahha.. nice post Brian. I am done in this thread.. but wanted to respond to your post.  I do tend to stay out of political discussions here. I don't suffer fools well... and I agree..some of the things I read didn't exactly bring out my warm and fuzzy side.  I could respect opinions more if they came from some rational basis.. such as life experience.. but usually it comes from people who simply don't know what the f**k they are talking about.  How many of anti-illegals here actually taken the time the get to know some of these people.  If they did... they might see they are not the demons that the GOP propaganda machine paints them to be.. they are people.. like you.. like me... who want the same as you or me... just an opportunity to have a better life. on that note... this whole taking jobs thing.....  any forum members here lost a job to an illegal immigrant?...  didn't think so.   They generally work the bottom dregs of jobs in this country.  They are the ones working the agriculture fields... slaughter houses... trade jobs... or minimum wage service industry jobs... that many americans simply feel are below them. That is why so many things are so cheap in this country.... especially food.  There would be no work force Brian to build that wall if they deported illegals.. they'd all be needed to pick the fruits and vegetables in the fields... or carve up Charlotte in the slaughterhouses so you can slap some BBQ sause on her dear remains for your party on the 4th of July. with commensurat pay of course... which drives prices UP.  Psstt...  Merril Lynch doesn't lay off white employees to hire a cheaper Latino illegal.  If you've lost a job to an illegal... it was probably time to find another job... and in those jobs... you can always find another. That is the nature of those jobs... very transcient. Job losses haven't been in that sector of the economy... we are recession proof hahaha.  People can do without the fancy sh*t... but people still have to live with basic services. nothing to add to your excellent thoughts Brian about the culture.. in fact... I get a chuckle about the stupidity of those who argue that.  What cultural values does the hispanic population bring... strong work ethic.. strong religious and social values.  Things that align strongly with what used to be core values of the right.So why do they fear them... we've shot the economic theory to hell, they'd pay.. if they were citizens.  I'll say what I have said in real life.. to many a face..... that party has become the party of 'fear'... yes... of bigotry.