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horsewithteeth11 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2009 at 21:57
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by birdwithteeth11 birdwithteeth11 wrote:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Social-Security-and-Medicare-apf-15219531.html

Why hasn't anything been done about this yet? Oh, that's right. Our government's going to wait until it's too late probably.

Maybe a government of by and for the people wasn't such a good idea after all. LOL



And yet that cheap labor exists because we let our labor costs rocket skyhigh. Oh the irony! Dead
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2009 at 18:31
Once Considered Unthinkable, U.S. Sales Tax Gets Fresh Look
Levy Viewed as Way to Reduce Deficits, Fund Health Reform

With budget deficits soaring and President Obama pushing a trillion-dollar-plus expansion of health coverage, some Washington policymakers are taking a fresh look at a money-making idea long considered politically taboo: a national sales tax.

Common around the world, including in Europe, such a tax -- called a value-added tax, or VAT -- has not been seriously considered in the United States. But advocates say few other options can generate the kind of money the nation will need to avert fiscal calamity.

At a White House conference earlier this year on the government's budget problems, a roomful of tax experts pleaded with Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner to consider a VAT. A recent flurry of books and papers on the subject is attracting genuine, if furtive, interest in Congress. And last month, after wrestling with the White House over the massive deficits projected under Obama's policies, the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee declared that a VAT should be part of the debate.

"There is a growing awareness of the need for fundamental tax reform," Sen. Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) said in an interview. "I think a VAT and a high-end income tax have got to be on the table."

A VAT is a tax on the transfer of goods and services that ultimately is borne by the consumer. Highly visible, it would increase the cost of just about everything, from a carton of eggs to a visit with a lawyer. It is also hugely regressive, falling heavily on the poor. But VAT advocates say those negatives could be offset by using the proceeds to pay for health care for every American -- a tangible benefit that would be highly valuable to low-income families.

Liberals dispute that notion. "You could pay for it regressively and have people at the bottom come out better off -- maybe. Or you could pay for it progressively and they'd come out a lot better off," said Bob McIntyre, director of the nonprofit Citizens for Tax Justice, which has a health financing plan that targets corporations and the rich.

A White House official said a VAT is "unlikely to be in the mix" as a means to pay for health-care reform. "While we do not want to rule any credible idea in or out as we discuss the way forward with Congress, the VAT tax, in particular, is popular with academics but highly controversial with policymakers," said Kenneth Baer, a spokesman for White House Budget Director Peter Orszag.

Still, Orszag has hired a prominent VAT advocate to advise him on health care: Ezekiel Emanuel, brother of White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel and author of the 2008 book "Health Care, Guaranteed." Meanwhile, former Federal Reserve chairman Paul A. Volcker, chairman of a task force Obama assigned to study the tax system, has expressed at least tentative support for a VAT.

"Everybody who understands our long-term budget problems understands we're going to need a new source of revenue, and a VAT is an obvious candidate," said Leonard Burman, co-director of the Tax Policy Center, a joint project of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution, who testified on Capitol Hill this month about his own VAT plan. "It's common to the rest of the world, and we don't have it."

Seeking New Revenue

The surge of interest in a VAT is testament to the extraordinary depth of the nation's money troubles. While some conservatives have long argued that a consumption tax would provide a simpler and more efficient alternative to the byzantine U.S. income tax code, this time it's all about the money.

The federal budget deficit is projected to approach $1.3 trillion next year, the highest ever except for this year, when the deficit is forecast to exceed $1.8 trillion. The Treasury is borrowing 46 cents of every dollar it spends, largely from China and other foreign creditors, who are growing increasingly uneasy about the security of their investments. Unless Congress comes up with some serious cash, expanding the nation's health-care system will only add to the problem.

Obama wants to raise income taxes for high earners and impose new levies on business, but those moves would not generate enough cash to cover the cost of health care, much less balance the budget, and they have not been fully embraced by Congress. Obama's plan to tax greenhouse-gas emissions could raise trillions of dollars, but again, Congress is balking.

Key lawmakers are considering other ways to pay for health reform, including new taxes on sugary soda, alcohol and employer-provided health insurance. The last proposal could raise a lot of money -- nearly $1 trillion over the next five years, according to White House budget documents. But options on the table would raise a fraction of that sum. And while it might pay for health care, it would barely dent deficits projected to total nearly $4 trillion over the next five years and to grow rapidly in the future, as baby boomers draw on Social Security and Medicare.

Enter the VAT, one of the world's most popular taxes, in use in more than 130 countries. Among industrialized nations, rates range from 5 percent in Japan to 25 percent in Hungary and in parts of Scandinavia. A 21 percent VAT has permitted Ireland to attract investment by lowering its corporate tax rate.

The VAT has advantages: Because producers, wholesalers and retailers are each required to record their transactions and pay a portion of the VAT, the tax is hard to dodge. It punishes spending rather than savings, which the administration hopes to encourage. And the threat of a VAT could pull the country out of recession, some economists argue, by hurrying consumers to the mall before the tax hits.

A VAT's Bottom Line

What would it cost? Emanuel argues in his book that a 10 percent VAT would pay for every American not entitled to Medicare or Medicaid to enroll in a health plan with no deductibles and minimal copayments. In his 2008 book, "100 Million Unnecessary Returns," Yale law professor Michael J. Graetz estimates that a VAT of 10 to 14 percent would raise enough money to exempt families earning less than $100,000 -- about 90 percent of households -- from the income tax and would lower rates for everyone else.

And in a paper published last month in the Virginia Tax Review, Burman suggests that a 25 percent VAT could do it all: Pay for health-care reform, balance the federal budget and exempt millions of families from the income tax while slashing the top rate to 25 percent. A gallon of milk would jump from $3.69 to $4.61, and a $5,000 bathroom renovation would suddenly cost $6,250, but the nation's debt would stabilize and everybody could see a doctor.

Sales Tax Gains Momentum

Burman, who helped House Democrats craft an unsuccessful 2007 plan to repeal the alternative minimum tax, said he's received a number of phone calls from lawmakers interested in his idea, though "they can't quite imagine how to make it happen politically." Burman said the 25 percent rate has caused some sticker shock, and he's trying to figure out how to bring it down.

Graetz's proposal drew an endorsement from Volcker, who last year called it "a sensible plan for reform." (Volcker did not respond to a request for comment.) It also has piqued the interest of Conrad, the Senate Budget Committee chairman who argues that it could be modified to accommodate Obama's pledge not to raise taxes on families who make less than $200,000 a year.

"I think interest is quietly picking up," Graetz said. "People are beginning to recognize that the mathematics of the current system are just unsustainable. You have to do something. And a VAT has got to be on the table if you want to do something big and serious."

Still, the Senate Finance Committee declined to include a VAT among the options it is considering to pay for health reform. And even VAT supporters doubt the tax will find a place among the tax-reform proposals the Volcker panel has been asked to produce by Dec. 4.

Though the nation's fiscal outlook is grim, Burman said "the situation will have to get more desperate" before lawmakers are likely to consider a new levy aimed directly at the pocketbooks of every one of their constituents.

Most lawmakers are still looking for "a painless source of revenue" to overhaul the health-care system and dig the nation out of debt, Burman said. "Who knows?" he added. "Maybe the tooth fairy will bring that to them."

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2009 at 19:05
Originally posted by birdwithteeth11 birdwithteeth11 wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by birdwithteeth11 birdwithteeth11 wrote:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Social-Security-and-Medicare-apf-15219531.html

Why hasn't anything been done about this yet? Oh, that's right. Our government's going to wait until it's too late probably.

Maybe a government of by and for the people wasn't such a good idea after all. LOL



And yet that cheap labor exists because we let our labor costs rocket skyhigh. Oh the irony! Dead

Sad how you totally missed the point there.  Companies moved jobs overseas because first of all the tax code allowed them to get away with it.  Labor costs are not sky high.  CEO compensation is.  Made possible by cheap overseas labor.  We basically have an economy that is out of balance.  The parasites are killing the host.  Let's start outsourcing their jobs to foreign CEOs who work for much less and see how they squeal.

On another note:


By the way, I really appreciate you not using overly large fonts but if you're going to quote something verbatim, please give credit and links to source. Sausage links preferred. Tongue

And before you accuse me of not giving proper credit to my pics, if you right click on the image and look at properties you will get the source.






Edited by Slartibartfast - July 19 2009 at 08:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2009 at 19:51
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by birdwithteeth11 birdwithteeth11 wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by birdwithteeth11 birdwithteeth11 wrote:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Social-Security-and-Medicare-apf-15219531.html

Why hasn't anything been done about this yet? Oh, that's right. Our government's going to wait until it's too late probably.

Maybe a government of by and for the people wasn't such a good idea after all. LOL



And yet that cheap labor exists because we let our labor costs rocket skyhigh. Oh the irony! Dead

Sad how you totally missed the point there.  Companies moved jobs overseas because first of all the tax code allowed them to get away with it.  Labor costs are not sky high.  CEO compensation is.  Made possible by cheap overseas labor.  We basically have an economy that is out of balance.  The parasites are killing the host.  Let's start outsourcing their jobs to foreign CEOs who work for much less and see how they squeal.

On another note:


By the way, I really appreciate you not using overly large fonts but if you're going to quote something verbatim, please give credit and links to source. Sausage links preferred. Tongue

And before you accuse me of not giving proper credit to my pics, if you right click on the image and look at properties you will get the source.






I wonder if that picture is from one of those spontaneous *cough*  Tea Parties that FauxNews was promoting?


Edited by crimhead - May 28 2009 at 19:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2009 at 20:36
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Sad how you totally missed the point there.  Companies moved jobs overseas because first of all the tax code allowed them to get away with it.  Labor costs are not sky high.  CEO compensation is.  Made possible by cheap overseas labor.  We basically have an economy that is out of balance.  The parasites are killing the host.  Let's start outsourcing their jobs to foreign CEOs who work for much less and see how they squeal.
So GM is going bankrupt because its CEO's salary drained the coffers? Where did you study economics? Now we will get rid of those parasites and have the company run by the unions. Wanna venture a guess where the company will end up?  But fear not - we'll have the VAT to pay for their next bankruptcy. And of course it's not income tax, we have to keep our promise not to raise income tax. What's 25%? It's only extra 90 cents for a gallon of milk.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2009 at 20:47
Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:


So GM is going bankrupt because its CEO's salary drained the coffers? Where did you study economics? Now we will get rid of those parasites and have the company run by the unions. Wanna venture a guess where the company will end up?  But fear not - we'll have the VAT to pay for their next bankruptcy. And of course it's not income tax, we have to keep our promise not to raise income tax. What's 25%? It's only extra 90 cents for a gallon of milk.


Good to see you back my friend.

Yes, they did.  Southern Tech and I read things.  The CEOs could still be well enough off and the workers could be better paid.  I really get sick and tired of all this right wing union bashing.  We have yet to see how giving the workers a better stake in the company will work out.  Cite me an instance where this has been done and failed?  If you compare the amount of money used for the bank bailouts to the loans granted to the auto industry it's fairly insignificant.  In either case the folks at the top of a company making all the money are ultimately responsible for their falures.  They rarely face the consequences.  Others pay the price.


Edited by Slartibartfast - July 19 2009 at 08:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2009 at 20:53
 
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:





Thant makes me angry.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2009 at 21:47
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:


So GM is going bankrupt because its CEO's salary drained the coffers? Where did you study economics? Now we will get rid of those parasites and have the company run by the unions. Wanna venture a guess where the company will end up?  But fear not - we'll have the VAT to pay for their next bankruptcy. And of course it's not income tax, we have to keep our promise not to raise income tax. What's 25%? It's only extra 90 cents for a gallon of milk.


Good to see you back my friend.

Yes, they did.  Southern Tech and I read things.  The CEOs could still be well enough off and the workers could be better paid.  I really get sick and tired of all this right wing union bashing. 
I really get sick and tired of all this silly liberal bashing of management. There are good managers and bad managers. Bad managers should be thrown out. A $10M salary for 5-6 top level GM officers is nothing. Does $70 per hour sound like a good pay? That's what a GM worker costs. How much better should it be? The company doesn't make enough to pay the workers and invest in new things to stay competitive. That's how the Japanese and Koreans grab the market share.
 
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

We have yet to see how giving the workers a better stake in the company will work out.  Cite me an instance where this has been done and failed? 
Entire countries failed. The Soviet Union, Poland, Hungary, Cuba. Do you think they will start making better cars if they own 30% of the company? They've had plenty of stock in their pension fund to care a bit more about the quality of their cars and they didn't.
 
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

If you compare the amount of money used for the bank bailouts to the loans granted to the auto industry it's fairly insignificant. 
What do the banks have to do with GM? Why do you use it as an argument? The banks are a calamity which is a product of deregulation. We're lucky simply to have banks today. We were on the brink of a total collapse of the financial system. And what do you call fairly insignificant? $15 billion?
 
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

In either case the folks at the top of a company making all the money are ultimately responsible for their falures.  They rarely face the consequences.  Others pay the price.
Are the folks at the top ultimately responsible for things falling of GM cars too? And how about the folks at the very top? At the top of the company called the United States? Do they face the concequences?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2009 at 21:59
GM failed because of its horrible management.
They actually do have competitive cars and reasonable quality. For example, the Cadillac CTS-V, beats the BMW M5 in all regards and it gets about 30 MPG too.
Hopefully, the performance division of GM, which is one of the things that were actually run right can splinter off and do its own thing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2009 at 08:21



Edited by Slartibartfast - July 23 2009 at 06:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2009 at 11:46
Well....unemployment here in the US is just about to hit 10%
It sounds like things might be starting to improve on wall street....but havn't seen any change yet on main street.
Although I've heard some reports that all the banks aren't really making any profit....just manipulating the markets.
Nothing ever does change


Edited by JJLehto - July 19 2009 at 18:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2009 at 16:35
Larry Summers cites Google search as progress
 
"... [the] top economic adviser Larry Summers highlighted one Friday to make his case that the economic free-fall has ended.

The number of people searching for the term “economic depression” on Google is down to normal levels, Summers said. "   http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/25083.html

 
I knew the man did and said some weird things in the past but now I'm not sure he's sane.
 
Saw some bad unemplyment numbers today. Taking into account part time workers willing to work full time, the unemployment rate in Oregon is 23%, in CA 20%. Considering the fact that the unemploymnt survey does not present an exact count of people out of work but rather a statistical average, the real numbers could be as high as 12%-13%. High price to pay for reckless policies of the Clinton-Bush era. Now the chance to fix it with the stimulus is gone. Change we need.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 05:58


I wonder if Obama would have actually been able to win the election if he hadn't promised the real powers that be that he would keep up much of same old crap that the last administration had been doing.  Yet seeing him being attacked for trying to implement a few relatively small policies that might actually benefit us commoners is ridiculous.



Edited by Slartibartfast - July 24 2009 at 10:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2009 at 12:02
The Dow Jones

ITS OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2009 at 10:22



Edited by Slartibartfast - July 24 2009 at 11:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2009 at 10:26
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

The Dow Jones

ITS OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!


I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop.  More bad news is just around the corner, I'm afraid.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2009 at 11:34
No way to delay that trouble coming everyday...
Waiting for the axe to fall...


Edited by Slartibartfast - July 24 2009 at 14:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2009 at 14:03
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

The Dow Jones

ITS OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!


I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop.  More bad news is just around the corner, I'm afraid.


Oh no doubt. I mean it's good that the stocks are looking up, and banks are starting to make some money. HOPEFULLY, the recovery happening on wall st will soon hit main st.
The stocks and banks are good for those people, but unemployment is still at just under 10%, and of course it's up to 15%+ in certain states and as high as 20 in some cities, plus people are still losing jobs, (though I think it's slowing)
I really do hope this is the very start....if we slide back deeper towards recession then....well not much needed to say
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2009 at 14:23
I certainly hope the economy is picking back up.  It's been really sucky for our business for quite a while. 

When I stop popping in here during the normal work day, you'll know things are picking up.


Edited by Slartibartfast - July 24 2009 at 14:24
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2009 at 10:33
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