For my Libertarian friends

JJLehto wrote: The Wizard wrote: JJLehto wrote: The Wizard wrote: It seems like a lot of Republicans these days are becoming libertarians without actually taking in the full ideological stance of the viewpoint. It's just a way for them to be a little more edgy and anti-socialist.  Yes, isn't that funny. I never heard the term really mentioned in national politics until a certain man from Texas by the name of Ron had a big internet campaign. After that I swear Libertarians started coming out of the woodwork. Sure, many were and just decided to some out in support, but I see it like a baseball team that did good. Now everyone is a "fan" Especially with Obama, the Democrats and their "socialism" sudddenly EVERY republican speech, regardless of content, manages to work the "big evil hand of government" into it? And I agree with Doc on the excise tax on cigarettes. They are WAY to high, esp in NJ and NY. It does hurt lower income earners mostly. And Wizard. I DO think legalizing it will make money, of course it will. I just do not think it is to the level advocates say....Although I would if we were able to pay for a new health care system from cannabis money. We could not only pay for healthcare, but arguably healthcare costs would go down. Marijuana would probably replace alcohol and tobacco as the drug of choice for many, and since marijuana is far safer and healthier than both drugs then medical situations associated with both would be reduced. Also, marijuana is an effective medecine for a variety of conditions, and those with such ailments could easily grow their own medecine in their backyard instead of having to pay for it. Everyone wins. Also, stress is associated with life threatening illness, and cannabis does wonders for reveilving stress. Don't get me wrong. I am 100% in favor of legalizing it, (and no I do not use it and never have). I'm just saying, I would like some numbers here. And what do you think about selling?  Obviously possession, growing, use of would be legalized. But I've heard many say they still think drug dealers should be punished. Either because it is still profiteering or because of crime. OH! And on more reason for legalizing it we forgot. The jails which are filled past the brim, which is not only bad for conditions but our taxes. It would reduce the overall prison population, lessening the burden on the system, and of course making sure we have more room for murderers and rapists who deserve to be there.

Selling should be treated in the same way selling alcohol or tobacco is treated - regulated. There should be an age limit on who can buy and possess as there is with alcohol and tobacco.

Epignosis wrote:   Not necessarily- arguably the biggest argument about abortion is whether or not it is murder (from a moral standpoint if not a legal one).  If a libertarian had to be pro-choice due to his philosophy, then he would have to say it's all right to shoot the slow checkout lady at Walmart because she's an inconvenience to him.  That of course is absurd.

The Wizard wrote: JJLehto wrote: The Wizard wrote: It seems like a lot of Republicans these days are becoming libertarians without actually taking in the full ideological stance of the viewpoint. It's just a way for them to be a little more edgy and anti-socialist.  Yes, isn't that funny. I never heard the term really mentioned in national politics until a certain man from Texas by the name of Ron had a big internet campaign. After that I swear Libertarians started coming out of the woodwork. Sure, many were and just decided to some out in support, but I see it like a baseball team that did good. Now everyone is a "fan" Especially with Obama, the Democrats and their "socialism" sudddenly EVERY republican speech, regardless of content, manages to work the "big evil hand of government" into it? And I agree with Doc on the excise tax on cigarettes. They are WAY to high, esp in NJ and NY. It does hurt lower income earners mostly. And Wizard. I DO think legalizing it will make money, of course it will. I just do not think it is to the level advocates say....Although I would if we were able to pay for a new health care system from cannabis money. We could not only pay for healthcare, but arguably healthcare costs would go down. Marijuana would probably replace alcohol and tobacco as the drug of choice for many, and since marijuana is far safer and healthier than both drugs then medical situations associated with both would be reduced. Also, marijuana is an effective medecine for a variety of conditions, and those with such ailments could easily grow their own medecine in their backyard instead of having to pay for it. Everyone wins. Also, stress is associated with life threatening illness, and cannabis does wonders for reveilving stress.

Don't get me wrong. I am 100% in favor of legalizing it, (and no I do not use it and never have).
I'm just saying, I would like some numbers here.
And what do you think about selling?  Obviously possession, growing, use of would be legalized. But I've heard many say they still think drug dealers should be punished. Either because it is still profiteering or because of crime.
OH! And on more reason for legalizing it we forgot. The jails which are filled past the brim, which is not only bad for conditions but our taxes. It would reduce the overall prison population, lessening the burden on the system, and of course making sure we have more room for murderers and rapists who deserve to be there.

And for my librarian friends, shouldn't you be shelving books or something? 

Isn't that what I said?
"government involvement in the private lives of citizens has no business."
Maybe different words, but that was the point I getting at.

And of course libertarians realize, (as much as they may not like) SOME taxes are needed, so we can at least fund the military, roads and essentials. Also, there has to be some government say, like speed limits and lights and all that. If you take it to THAT extreme you just become an anarchist.

But still, no government involvement in our private lives. By that definition, a libertarian should be pro-choice, support gay marriage, as well as SOME levels of drug de-criminalization. Of course they would also be opposed to gun control.
And again, I know you can be libertarian overall and pro-life.
I'm just saying by the strict definition that should not be the case

JJLehto wrote: Epignosis wrote: JJLehto wrote: Epignosis wrote: I say make weed legal and tax it like cigarettes and liquor. Let's be honest- marijuana has caused way fewer deaths and maimings than drink and causes fewer health problems than cigarettes. So is why is that illegal? Why do we spend exorbitant amounts of money arresting and jailing people who use and deal it? Has prohibition taught us nothing? I've never toked myself- not once- but as I contemplate the beer I will enjoy today, I'll just say that I'm no hypocrite. And while we're here I want to know: How do you guys feel about gay marriage and abortion. Because I've known quite a few people claiming to be libertarian, some pretty hardline but only ONE identified as pro-choice, (though personally against it). A true libertarian should be pro-choice going by their own philosophy... And for the record, when it comes to social issues I have a libertarian streak, it's the economics though I'm going to avoid here Not necessarily- arguably the biggest argument about abortion is whether or not it is murder (from a moral standpoint if not a legal one).  If a libertarian had to be pro-choice due to his philosophy, then he would have to say it's all right to shoot the slow checkout lady at Walmart because she's an inconvenience to him.  That of course is absurd. Gay marriage is the same way, I think, but is probably much more likely to be supported by libertarians (but I still know several who do not support it and yet can easily be considered libertarians by a plethora of other beliefs). Remember, a label can be helpful, but if the subgenres here at Prog Archives have taught us anything, it's that they often aren't. I'm just saying. Libertarianism is as little government control in our lives as possible. So, by that theory even if you are opposed to abortion, you should support pro-choice anyway....because the government can not tell you what/what not to do. I guess I'm just being a smart ass though.. I know obviously opinions can differ...and I guess you can go the Ron Paul method and say a fetus is a life, so a libertarian MUST be pro-life since you have to support their rights. And yes, almost all the libertarians I know DO support gay marriage. Again, for the reason that the government can't tell them what to do. Though social issues aren't usually their thing, they seem to more bent on economics. And that's where libertarians and myself get into some fun debates

Just to clarify, I think you're missing the point of libertarianism- Libertarianism doesn't say that the government can't tell us what to do- that would be downright delusional.  The overarching purpose of libertarianism is show where government involvement in the private lives of citizens has no business.

If the government can't tell you what to do, then why can't you marry your copy of Thick as a Brick?  Because government recognizes marriages and makes marriage meaningful in terms of economics, taxes, etc.

Edited by Slartibartfast - July 15 2009 at 12:34

The Wizard wrote: It seems like a lot of Republicans these days are becoming libertarians without actually taking in the full ideological stance of the viewpoint. It's just a way for them to be a little more edgy and anti-socialist.

Yes, isn't that funny. I never heard the term really mentioned in national politics until a certain man from Texas by the name of Ron had a big internet campaign. After that I swear Libertarians started coming out of the woodwork.
Sure, many were and just decided to some out in support, but I see it like a baseball team that did good.
Now everyone is a "fan"

Especially with Obama, the Democrats and their "socialism" sudddenly EVERY republican speech, regardless of content, manages to work the "big evil hand of government" into it?

And I agree with Doc on the excise tax on cigarettes. They are WAY to high, esp in NJ and NY. It does hurt lower income earners mostly.

And Wizard. I DO think legalizing it will make money, of course it will. I just do not think it is to the level advocates say....Although I would if we were able to pay for a new health care system from cannabis money.


Edited by JJLehto - July 15 2009 at 12:12

Epignosis wrote: I say make weed legal and tax it like cigarettes and liquor.

Epignosis wrote: JJLehto wrote: Epignosis wrote: I say make weed legal and tax it like cigarettes and liquor. Let's be honest- marijuana has caused way fewer deaths and maimings than drink and causes fewer health problems than cigarettes. So is why is that illegal? Why do we spend exorbitant amounts of money arresting and jailing people who use and deal it? Has prohibition taught us nothing? I've never toked myself- not once- but as I contemplate the beer I will enjoy today, I'll just say that I'm no hypocrite. And while we're here I want to know: How do you guys feel about gay marriage and abortion. Because I've known quite a few people claiming to be libertarian, some pretty hardline but only ONE identified as pro-choice, (though personally against it). A true libertarian should be pro-choice going by their own philosophy... And for the record, when it comes to social issues I have a libertarian streak, it's the economics though I'm going to avoid here Not necessarily- arguably the biggest argument about abortion is whether or not it is murder (from a moral standpoint if not a legal one).  If a libertarian had to be pro-choice due to his philosophy, then he would have to say it's all right to shoot the slow checkout lady at Walmart because she's an inconvenience to him.  That of course is absurd. Gay marriage is the same way, I think, but is probably much more likely to be supported by libertarians (but I still know several who do not support it and yet can easily be considered libertarians by a plethora of other beliefs). Remember, a label can be helpful, but if the subgenres here at Prog Archives have taught us anything, it's that they often aren't.

I'm just saying. Libertarianism is as little government control in our lives as possible.
So, by that theory even if you are opposed to abortion, you should support pro-choice anyway....because the government can not tell you what/what not to do.
I guess I'm just being a smart ass though.. I know obviously opinions can differ...and I guess you can go the Ron Paul method and say a fetus is a life, so a libertarian MUST be pro-life since you have to support their rights.
And yes, almost all the libertarians I know DO support gay marriage. Again, for the reason that the government can't tell them what to do.
Though social issues aren't usually their thing, they seem to more bent on economics. And that's where libertarians and myself get into some fun debates