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Topic ClosedWhy are we such bigots? (or are we?)

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BaldFriede View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 09:56
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Absolutely Raff - but I'd always differentiate between Metal & prog metal; to my ears, metal means bands such as Motorhead, Priest, System Of A Down & so on.

I remember many many arguments in my youth trying to differentiate between heavy metal, heavy rock & hard rock

But that's away from the point...

Back to the original quote - I think had Fuxi meant the fans he would have said "they're loved by their fans because THEY are loud, rough and uncouth" as opposed to "they're loved by their fans because they ARE loud, rough and uncouth"

A small distinction, I know, but as I say, I could be wrong...


I thank you, Jim, and I apologise for my sloppy writing. You were 100% right: I was referring to the music, not to the fans.

Like nearly all of us I grew up with rock music, and I love certain albums because they are so loud, e.g. THE WHO LIVE AT LEEDS: part of the appeal is its sheer wildness.

I once fell in love with a girl who happened to be a classical flautist. I wanted to turn her on to WHO'S NEXT, which is fairly aggressive (though not as rough as LIVE AT LEEDS) but also, to my ears, incredibly subtle, precise, exciting AND moving. You sometimes read the Who used to play with the precision of chamber musicians, and that's the way I've always felt myself. So I started from the start: "Baby O'Riley" - could she hear it was GLORIOUS? No, she could not. Then I played "My Wife" - wasn't that really exhilerating, just for the drumming? Apparently it was not. Only when I played her "Behind Blue Eyes" she seemed to melt a bit. At least until all hell broke loose towards the end.

And this was not because she was a snob or a bigot. She was an incredibly nice person - intelligent, sensitive and spontaneous. But it was her tragedy (?) that she was only accustomed to music that was incredibly suble and refined (without getting sentimental). She had no ears for amplified music.

I have a similar problem with metal. It's a dimension I do not move in. I've got no problem with Led Zep, ever since I learnt to live with Robert Plant's wail, and I enjoy, for example, the Mars Volta's early albums (which are pretty wild, but sufficiently varied and intricate) - but metal???

I KNOW its fans like it 'cause it's rough and uncouth, 'cause when I was in the army (oh Glory Days!) my roommate (who was also my best friend there) was an amateur heavy metal guitarist who enjoyed nothing more than playing Venom, Loudness, and early Metallica tapes, jumping up and down wildly in the room while banging his head forcefully against our metal locker! I got on really well with him, 'cause the music he enjoyed had far more character than the rubbish most of the other guys liked (there were two WHAM! freaks in our room) and yes, there were prog-like passages in it.

Still, I've never been tempted to explore the collected works of Venom and Metallica. (Or even Iron Maiden, Queensryche and the like.) Life is too short, and I'm busy enough exploring other genres.

The same goes for rap. If I wanted to, I'm sure I could become a rap aficionado and learn to appreciate the manifold ways rappers spout their words. But the relentless beat puts me off and if I feel like listening to poetry I'll get some British Library recordings instead!

So does all this turn me into a "bigot"? Heaven forbid. It just seems that, as you explore certain alleys (and for me, in the past few decades, those alleys have led mainly to French and Italian baroque music, pre-romantic symphonies and oratorios, Berlioz operas, and post-1970 jazz of European origin) you turn your back to others. It simply cannot be helped. But each to his own!

That's quite funny; it is about the same way Jean and I went too. Add some world music to it, like Rabih Abou-Khalil, Embryo, Roman Bunka or Roland Schaeffer, and that's about our musical taste. We both have some embarrassing skeletons in the closet too which I won't mention here and which only one of us likes.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 12:34
Originally posted by fighting sleep fighting sleep wrote:



Now, if you read my first post, you may notice that I asked for reasoned arguments for bigoted statements such as: "Hip Hop is the worst thing that happened to music". Frankly, that sort of thing is a bit irritating, and it's the reason why I started the thread in the first place. I'd like you to back that up with some clear cut logic, instead of vague generalizations.


 
There's a problem, you can't justify why you love "A" girl and not "B" girl, despite "B" girl may be prettiest (according o the western society standards of course), more intelligent, kinder and better person, "A" girl may be a bad person, married  (I know that I fell in love with te wrong woman more than once), or even not love you at all, but you are still in love.
 
There's no explanation for that you simply love "A" and hat's all....In the same way you can't explain clearly why you like Prog and not Hip Hop, but I will ry to make some statements.
 
  • I can't like a genre in which sampling works of real artists is common.
  • I can't like a genre based in beat rather than in elaborate music
  • I doin't like a genre that carries a lot of negative connotations like sexism, violence homophobia, in MOST artists.

I read thousands of posts in favour of Hip Hop here, and because I'm not an expert, I heard all the bands or artists mentioned as the best, and found nothing that really impressed me at all, by the cobrary, ggfoundmos of it hollow and the ones that had interestuing lyrics, were extremely violent and promoted vilolence.

There must be some good Hip Hop artists, but I'm not willing to dig in a mountain of drivel to find one gem.
 
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
Even women-degrading rap, as you call it, might have fans, even violence-promoting rap might have fans... all of that is very sociological and needs deeper analisys... 
 
T I don't need a sociologist to know that promoting sexism, violence and degrading women is negative, they have fans and that's the problem, because it PROMOTES violence and negative values and it's availlable for everybody, mostly kids with incomplete formation that believe crap like b¡tches, nigga,
 
 kill a cop on a solo mission; without a pair of gloves
Shot him in the face with a stolen biscuit
Then wiped my fingerprints off real careful
If you don't think you ready yet dog, just let the song prepare you

 
Ill Bill - How To Kill A Cop * lyrics
 
Do you believe it's ok to feed kids with his crap?
 
Thuis should be banned for God's sake, and them people ask why there's so much violence.

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Prog fans are not bigots. They're just jealous of the commercial  fortunes popular artists have. Why? Because it makes us feel special.
 
Jealous?
 
Jealous of what?
 
I'm getting nothing for my taste, what could I be jealous about?
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 25 2009 at 12:35
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 12:36
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

That's quite funny; it is about the same way Jean and I went too. Add some world music to it, like Rabih Abou-Khalil, Embryo, Roman Bunka or Roland Schaeffer, and that's about our musical taste.


I'm very glad to hear it! I don't know that much "World Music" but I love Abou-Khalil, Zap Mama and the Nenes (reggae-influenced pop from Okinawa).

I recently bought Tom Moon's 1000 RECORDINGS TO HEAR BEFORE YOU DIE, which is very exciting and truly "catholic" in taste. In my view, there's a sufficient amount of prog in there, even Gong's GAZEUSE; the book's main defect is that no less than 6 (!!!) of those 1000 recordings are by the Beatles while the great Joseph Haydn gets only 1! Anyway, I now realise the time has come to dig much deeper into Brazilian music: Os Mutantes, Caetano Veloso, Tom Ze etc. etc.!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 12:52
Ivan, could you please not take everything so personal?
 
About the violence point, there's no point discussing it. You would never understand my point, and I would never see things the way you do. So why start an argument over hip-hop, which is not even the main subject of this forum?
 
I still fail to understand why prog fans hate commercial acts so much... a few explanations come to mind (and NO, Ivan, I'm not talking about you. I know you like Fleetwood Mac and Meat Loaf and etc etc etc.).  Jealousy, frustration, envy, immaturity, superiority complex, sense of belonging, group-mentality, whatever positive or negative. I don't know.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 13:00
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Ivan, could you please not take everything so personal?
 
This is not personal T, it's my opinion
 
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

About the violence point, there's no point discussing it. You would never understand my point, and I would never see things the way you do. So why start an argument over hip-hop, which is not even the main subject of this forum?
 
Theo, I'm sure you don't get my point, the day you go to a prisson because you have to do it to get a degree and try to councel a criminal who really believes this crap....You'll understand me.
 
This guy is giving detailled and coherent instructions of how to kill a policeman...That in my country is a crime.
 
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I still fail to understand why prog fans hate commercial acts so much... a few explanations come to mind (and NO, Ivan, I'm not talking about you. I know you like Fleetwood Mac and Meat Loaf and etc etc etc.).  Jealousy, frustration, envy, immaturity, superiority complex, sense of belonging, group-mentality, whatever positive or negative. I don't know.
 
I believe hardly anybody hates all commercial acts, most people don't like Prog, others don't like Rap and some don't like Pop, but hardly somebody hates them all.
 
And if somebody does it for superiority complex, we're talking about a poser.
 
Iván 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 25 2009 at 15:39
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 13:05
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
I still fail to understand why prog fans hate commercial acts so much... a few explanations come to mind (and NO, Ivan, I'm not talking about you. I know you like Fleetwood Mac and Meat Loaf and etc etc etc.).  Jealousy, frustration, envy, immaturity, superiority complex, sense of belonging, group-mentality, whatever positive or negative. I don't know.
I am easily annoyed and having to listen to the same terrible, repetitive songs over and over drives me crazy.
if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 13:29
P.S. Let's not forget:

Three cheers for Kante Manfila and Ali Farka Toure - superb musicians!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 13:43
One should think twice before using the term "commercial". The so-called "commercial" music exists because record companies like to play it safe, so following the same old pattern for producing albums is what they do. And they create "trends" in music, the problem of which is that the differences between them are often close to nil.
I personally believe record companies underestimate the listeners; the sales-drop of records has not only to do with them being available as pirated online-bootlegs, it certainly has to do with their cautiousness too. I am very certain kids would like to listen to other music than that commercial crap; the problem is they hardly ever get a chance these days, so they don't know anything else.


Edited by BaldFriede - June 25 2009 at 14:09


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 13:53
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

One should think twice before using the term "commercial". The so-called "commercial" music exists because record companies like to play it d´safe, so following the same old pattern for producing albums is what they do. And they create "trends" in music, the problem of which is that the differences between them are often close to nil.
I personally believe record companies underestimate the listeners; the sales-drop of records has not only to do with them being available as pirated online-bootlegs, it certainly has to do with their cautiousness too. I am very certain kids would like to listen to other music than that commercial crap; the problem is they hardly ever get a chance these days, so they don't know anything else.


I think this is one of the best posts I've seen for a long time.Clap

Friede is absolutely right. I despair at the sheer amount of dross which is force fed on mainstream tv and radio. There are very few outlets for anything else, and in that sense, the so called choice agenda of piles of tv & radio channels has absolutely led to LESS choice for consumers, not more.

Before the advent of satellite tv, there was actually a marvellous range of eclectic and diverse music on British television and radio. I speak, by the way, as a fan of modern technology.





Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 13:58
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Ivan, could you please not take everything so personal?
 
About the violence point, there's no point discussing it. You would never understand my point, and I would never see things the way you do. So why start an argument over hip-hop, which is not even the main subject of this forum?
 
I still fail to understand why prog fans hate commercial acts so much... a few explanations come to mind (and NO, Ivan, I'm not talking about you. I know you like Fleetwood Mac and Meat Loaf and etc etc etc.).  Jealousy, frustration, envy, immaturity, superiority complex, sense of belonging, group-mentality, whatever positive or negative. I don't know.


Teo, you know I consider you a friend, but I really don't understand why you have so much animosity towards 'prog fans' (not that you are the only one). I believe you have been here long enough to know that not all of the membership hates 'commercial acts'. I for one don't on principle, and neither does Micky. As a matter of fact, there are many of us who concur that good pop is way better than bad prog. Those few people who seem to worship 'pure prog' as a sort of supernatural entity are, thank heavens, a minority - though, as all too often happens, they can be the most vocal.

Then, since you are a metal fan first and foremost, you should know very well that metalheads can be even worse than proggers - or at least they used to be when I hang out with them, in the mid-Eighties. That 'group mentality', that sense of belonging to a tightly-knit community (even if it is not true) is a characteristic I have found in a lot of places, not just amongst prog fans.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 13:58
Well to me there seems to be a musical cycle that has been going on, well, as long as there's been music, I suppose. It would appear that music starts off as a social sort of thing, something used to dance to, assist in telling stories or making statements, etc. However, after a while musician and listener both get bored of this, and start to crave something more. The music gradually grows in complexity and sophistication, with people experimenting and delighted fans lapping it up. However, many fans aren't very musical, and as a result have less developped ears than their musician counterparts. This usually means that music will reach a certain degree of complexity or experimentation that the fans are just alienated, they are no longer able to relate. As a result, there's a backlash against the deep stuff and music becomes a simple, social concept again.

You see this all over the place: Jazz started out as a way for people to get their groove on in clubs, but overtime it grew and grew and musicians pushed it as far as it would go. Of course, by a certain point most people lost interest with jazz because it had simply become too heady, but then a man named Elvis Presley comes in and suddenly you've got music you can dance to again. That music, in turn, would slowly grow and become increasingly complex until you've got the Beatles and the 70s Prog movement, which enjoys a good amount of success until, again, it just goes too far for most people and suddenly Punk is in demand. Punk slowly gives way to the virtuosity of metal, which in turn gets replaced by the grunge scene of the 90s. I think we're still riding that wave now, I think that currently we're in that evolutionary stage where commercial music is pushing more and more boundaries and spreading its wings a bit. Probably within the next ten years it will have peaked and then been replaced again, but who knows what could happen?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 14:17
Originally posted by KingCrimson250 KingCrimson250 wrote:

Punk slowly gives way to the virtuosity of metal, which in turn gets replaced by the grunge scene of the 90s. I think we're still riding that wave now, I think that currently we're in that evolutionary stage where commercial music is pushing more and more boundaries and spreading its wings a bit. Probably within the next ten years it will have peaked and then been replaced again, but who knows what could happen?


In a world where simplistic music dominates, do you expect a return to even more simplistic music?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 14:19
Originally posted by KingCrimson250 KingCrimson250 wrote:

You see this all over the place: Jazz started out as a way for people to get their groove on in clubs, but overtime it grew and grew and musicians pushed it as far as it would go. Of course, by a certain point most people lost interest with jazz because it had simply become too heady, but then a man named Elvis Presley comes in and suddenly you've got music you can dance to again. That music, in turn, would slowly grow and become increasingly complex until you've got the Beatles and the 70s Prog movement, which enjoys a good amount of success until, again, it just goes too far for most people and suddenly Punk is in demand. Punk slowly gives way to the virtuosity of metal, which in turn gets replaced by the grunge scene of the 90s. I think we're still riding that wave now, I think that currently we're in that evolutionary stage where commercial music is pushing more and more boundaries and spreading its wings a bit. Probably within the next ten years it will have peaked and then been replaced again, but who knows what could happen?

I sincerely doubt it, and contrary to you I don't see any signs of this happening. The problem is that music used to be an important topic in school, but today it has been degraded to a minor subject which (at least in Germany) can even be dropped completely once you reach tenth grade. And hardly any kids learn an instrument anymore.
Fortunately this problem has been spotted in North Rhine-Westphalia, the federal state of Germany I live in. There now is an initiative called "For every kid an instrument", whose goal is exactly that, and it has started pretty well. Let's hope it will show some results in the future.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2009 at 16:06
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


I sincerely doubt it, and contrary to you I don't see any signs of this happening. The problem is that music used to be an important topic in school, but today it has been degraded to a minor subject which (at least in Germany) can even be dropped completely once you reach tenth grade. And hardly any kids learn an instrument anymore.
 
When I received my schedule in the University back in the 80's, we had to spend two years in General Studies (Phillosophy, Math, Linguistics, History, Literature, Theology etc) and it consisted of 72 credits, 52 of mandatory classes, 18 of Selective classesand 2 credits of activities.
 
We had Musical appreciation 101, 102 and103 as selectivec courses (9 credits in total), and most students took them because it wasn't so hard, but at least we graduated knowing who Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, etc were, we had to go to concerts by the National Symphony Orchestra, it was a lot for people who had 3 hours of music in the schools each week.
 
I took the three classes and the three Theology courses and even when I had clasical formation learned a lot, I remember listing with mybteacher some Wakeman and Emerson which he learned to like.
 
Now Music 101 is an  activity (102 amd 103 have vanished),  and is worth 2 credits, so people rather take sports of whatever than study musical theory, history and appreciation.
 

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Fortunately this problem has been spotted in North Rhine-Westphalia, the federal state of Germany I live in. There now is an initiative called "For every kid an instrument", whose goal is exactly that, and it has started pretty well. Let's hope it will show some results in the future.
 
That doesn't happen here.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2009 at 01:39
Ivan, I'm sorry if you can't get over the lyrics and message of most mainstream (and non-mainstream) rap, and I completely agree with you that our kids should not be hearing that kind of crap and it should be banned.  For the lyrics.  But frankly thats all i can see that is keeping you from an amazing genre that is different and is one of the only mainstream genres that is dare I say PROGRESSIVE.  I agree with BaldFriede completely that the reason mainstream stuff sucks so much is that the labels and producers and whatnot are trying to imitate what is popular...making the most un-prograssive music popular.  This is very true with mainstream rock, but hip-hop producers/artists have a very different frame of mind and are constantly trying to bring new ideas and new music to the genre.  for the hell of it here are two hiphop artists that come to mind that are good and aren't obscene: TTC, and The Dawnbreaker Collective.  oh and the Gorrilaz for what they have contributed to hiphop.. A very progressive band btw

Edited by hitting_singularity2 - June 26 2009 at 01:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2009 at 01:59
Hey, Raff, where's the long version of your gif? LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2009 at 11:12
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


I sincerely doubt it, and contrary to you I don't see any signs of this happening. The problem is that music used to be an important topic in school, but today it has been degraded to a minor subject which (at least in Germany) can even be dropped completely once you reach tenth grade. And hardly any kids learn an instrument anymore.
Fortunately this problem has been spotted in North Rhine-Westphalia, the federal state of Germany I live in. There now is an initiative called "For every kid an instrument", whose goal is exactly that, and it has started pretty well. Let's hope it will show some results in the future.


Well the results are not perhaps ideal, but what I'm saying is that currently we are seeing more complex bands have a greater appeal as opposed to the 90s. Bands like Between the Buried and Me or Coheed and Cambria are actually rather well-known, and Explosions in the Sky are practically gods in the Indie scene (which isn't saying much, I know, but still...) which is certainly a step up from the grunge and boy-band dominated 90s. I'm coming to realize that with the advent of the internet, what gets played on the radio isn't always an accurate reflection of what people are listening to.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2009 at 11:23
Originally posted by KingCrimson250 KingCrimson250 wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


I sincerely doubt it, and contrary to you I don't see any signs of this happening. The problem is that music used to be an important topic in school, but today it has been degraded to a minor subject which (at least in Germany) can even be dropped completely once you reach tenth grade. And hardly any kids learn an instrument anymore.
Fortunately this problem has been spotted in North Rhine-Westphalia, the federal state of Germany I live in. There now is an initiative called "For every kid an instrument", whose goal is exactly that, and it has started pretty well. Let's hope it will show some results in the future.


Well the results are not perhaps ideal, but what I'm saying is that currently we are seeing more complex bands have a greater appeal as opposed to the 90s. Bands like Between the Buried and Me or Coheed and Cambria are actually rather well-known, and Explosions in the Sky are practically gods in the Indie scene (which isn't saying much, I know, but still...) which is certainly a step up from the grunge and boy-band dominated 90s. I'm coming to realize that with the advent of the internet, what gets played on the radio isn't always an accurate reflection of what people are listening to.

It probably depends on where you live; I am not aware that those bands are well-known here. And even if they were, it would not mean much for me; Coheed and Cambria, for example, are in my opinion a very questionable addition to the archives.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2009 at 11:26
Originally posted by hitting_singularity2 hitting_singularity2 wrote:

Ivan, I'm sorry if you can't get over the lyrics and message of most mainstream (and non-mainstream) rap, and I completely agree with you that our kids should not be hearing that kind of crap and it should be banned.  For the lyrics.  But frankly thats all i can see that is keeping you from an amazing genre that is different and is one of the only mainstream genres that is dare I say PROGRESSIVE.
 
Progressive?...For God's sake they are talking fast, something humanity has done for ever!!!!!!!
 
Lyrics are not the only prooblem, I said I don't even consider Rap as music.
 
 
Originally posted by hitting_singularity2 hitting_singularity2 wrote:

   I agree with BaldFriede completely that the reason mainstream stuff sucks so much is that the labels and producers and whatnot are trying to imitate what is popular...making the most un-prograssive music popular.  This is very true with mainstream rock, but hip-hop producers/artists have a very different frame of mind and are constantly trying to bring new ideas and new music to the genre.  for the hell of it here are two hiphop artists that come to mind that are good and aren't obscene: TTC, and The Dawnbreaker Collective.  oh and the Gorrilaz for what they have contributed to hiphop.. A very progressive band btw
 
Every time a member mentions a great Hip Hop artist,. I get something of their music, and still haven't found something I remotely like.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2009 at 11:36
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Ivan, could you please not take everything so personal?
 
This is not personal T, it's my opinion
 
You seriously react as it was a personal attack against you.
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

About the violence point, there's no point discussing it. You would never understand my point, and I would never see things the way you do. So why start an argument over hip-hop, which is not even the main subject of this forum?
 
Theo, I'm sure you don't get my point, the day you go to a prisson because you have to do it to get a degree and try to councel a criminal who really believes this crap....You'll understand me.That I understand. Now remember that most of the original gangsta rappers where born in slums, in the 'hood, where policemen stopped them just for being black (there's this running joke where one of the major crimes in black neighborhoods is "driving while black"), where abuse and violence has been againbts them for ages, from slavery they went to being oppresed by the white cop and by crack cocaine which the white man introduced in their neighborhoods.... What they sung is what they feel and what they saw... It's kind of logical to want to kill a cop when all your life cops have been abusing your community...
 
This guy is giving detailled and coherent instructions of how to kill a policeman...That in my country is a crime. In Peru. The country we are talking abouty is the united States, where they are entitled to say whatever stupid thing they want to say. I Thank your god for freedom of speech.
 
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I still fail to understand why prog fans hate commercial acts so much... a few explanations come to mind (and NO, Ivan, I'm not talking about you. I know you like Fleetwood Mac and Meat Loaf and etc etc etc.).  Jealousy, frustration, envy, immaturity, superiority complex, sense of belonging, group-mentality, whatever positive or negative. I don't know.
 
I believe hardly anybody hates all commercial acts, most people don't like Prog, others don't like Rap and some don't like Pop, but hardly somebody hates them all. Sometimes I get those ideas. May be an exaggeration of course.
 
And if somebody does it for superiority complex, we're talking about a poser. Yes.
 
Iván 


Edited by The T - June 26 2009 at 11:36
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