Forum Home Forum Home > Other music related lounges > General Music Discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Why are we such bigots? (or are we?)
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedWhy are we such bigots? (or are we?)

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
Author
Message
Failcore View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 27 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 4625
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 00:16
Darn it, don't we already have 5001 threads on this that are already failing hard enough??? There's is nothing wrong with liking something better than something else. This PC crap is already bad enough in politics, why do we need it in a music forum???Angry


Edited by Deathrabbit - June 24 2009 at 00:21
Back to Top
hitting_singularity2 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 14 2009
Location: ON, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 127
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 00:36
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Why bigots or even snobs?
 
Because we know what we like and whar we don't like?
 
There are lots of music I like, there's outstanding Pop, excellent mainstream Rock, Hard Rock, Metal, Jazz, Fusion, Country, Folk even some Punk..
 
But I don't like Rap or Hip Hop, I don't have to like everything, if you like rap and Hip Hop good for you, but don't judge people for not liking everything, I don't consider Rap as music, but some sort of street poetry with music in the background, and Hip Hop the worst thing that happened to music....And what about it?
 
I'm sure there's lots of music you don't like.
 
BTW: Bigotry is an offensive term  related mainly with intollerance or hatred against an ethnic, racial or religious group, so shouldn't be used to qualify people who simply know what they like and what they don't.
 
Iván
 


I would have been perfectly fine with that post except for "I don't consider Rap as music, but some sort of street poetry with music in the background, and Hip Hop the worst thing that happened to music....And what about it?"

take a look at the brilliant explenation of rap/hip-hip by Anderson III which i beleive you should have read already.  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=58805&PN=1




Edited by hitting_singularity2 - June 24 2009 at 00:36
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 01:12
Originally posted by hitting_singularity2 hitting_singularity2 wrote:



I would have been perfectly fine with that post except for "I don't consider Rap as music, but some sort of street poetry with music in the background, and Hip Hop the worst thing that happened to music....And what about it?"

take a look at the brilliant explenation of rap/hip-hip by Anderson III which i beleive you should have read already.  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=58805&PN=1


 
I respect but don't agree with  Anderson III's opinion, and I base it in a couple of points:
 
Originally posted by Anderson III Anderson III wrote:



The way rappers use the human voice as a musical element is actually quite unique and remarkable. As a rhythmic instrument it's definitely my favorites, because one can experiment with all these different tones and express any emotion easily.
 
 
Not unique or remarcable, I find it mediocre and forced, they are just speaking fast, some of them use several moods but so poetry,.
 
Poetrywith music  is not new, García Lorca did it almost one century  ago with great poems and excellent music, not  threatening and insulting everybody or blaming against the system  while using gold chains n the neck that could feed a small country.
 
 
If you want to go even further in the past, you could gp to the Medieval age, when travelling troubadours useed a basic melody with flute, lute and tambourine to tell stories.
 
And despite the melodic baxckground this stories or the Lorca `poems were forms of narration or poetry in which the voice is used with certain rhythm and different moods.
 
And of course, the lack of an important elements of music in Rap as melody, disqualifies it in most cases
 
Originally posted by Anderson III Anderson III wrote:


Unlike in other styles of vocal music where the lyrics are usually built within the melody, in Hip Hop it's in the rhythm - which actually insinuates that when done right, rapping is more versatile than drumming. But there's more: when the rhythm is put into rhyme, the correspondence of sound actually makes it "flow" beautifully.
 
 
Not accurate either, there's  music in whicgh the vocals don't follow the melody, Gentle Giant (a band I don't like) uses absolutely dissonant vocals that have little if any relation with the melody that is played by the instruments, both melody and vocals go by different paths, but there's melody in the song, unlike in rap.
 
And nothing new, you can listen dissonant vocals in early Rock bands as The Mamas & the Papas, a group of musicians with no Prog relation.
 
Have yo ever heard OSIBISA?
 
That's rhythm put into rhyme, but with a strong melody to complement the fantastic rhythms.
 
I find nothing beautiful in rap, maybe I'm wrong but it'sm my taste.....Sorry, but this is my 100% honest opinion. 

Iván 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 24 2009 at 02:41
            
Back to Top
lucas View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8138
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 01:27
I listen to a lot of music : funk, world, folk, jazz, classical, blues, metal, pop/rock, soul...
Prog has a lot to offer but many gems stem from other musical genres.
 
Regarding country/ bluegrass/ rockabilly/alt-country, I love quite a lot of artists : emmylou harris, albert lee (who incidentally released a jazz-fusion tainted rockabilly album with Chad Wackerman : 'speechless' and is featured on two steve morse band albums), new riders of the purple sage, commander cody & his lost plant airmen, pure prairie league, newgrass revival, poco, johnny cash but also steve earle, lucinda williams (first two albums), the jayhawks, linda ronstadt, guy clark, townes van zandt, nitty gritty dirt band, tarantella, 16horsepower, jay munly, curtis eller's american circus, myssouri, hyacinth house, marcel dadi, leon russell, gene clark, the byrds' 'sweetheart of the rodeo', bob dylan... 
 
Regarding rap, I liked a time Run-DMC but it doesn't click with me anymore. Same with beastie boys. The main problem is with vocals, as someone pointed out it requires some technical abilities but it does the same effect as an unending  guitar or drum solo : it annoys me to death and prompts me to skip to the next track, but in the case of rap, it lasts from beginning to the end of the album...Rap works when combined with metal : Slayer witth Ice-T (who rather sang than rapped), Anthrax with Public Enemy and the excellent hardcore band Biohazard. Some pop/prog artists like Peter Gabriel and Gavin Castleton released one album with some rap vocals ('ovo' for the first, 'Home' for the second), and I really think it spoils the overall mood of their respective album.
 
 
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 01:47
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Why bigots or even snobs?
 

 
BTW: Bigotry is an offensive term  related mainly with intollerance or hatred against an ethnic, racial or religious group, so shouldn't be used to qualify people who simply know what they like and what they don't.
 
Iván
 

I agree with Ivan, Bigotry is absolutely the wrong word.

How can you be called a bigot for not liking Rap or whatever. Its ridiculous!LOL
Back to Top
meptune View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 01 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 231
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 01:50
I for one have been accused of being a musical biggot simply because I champion prog as my favorite genre. However, I can counter that accusation with the evidence of my record collection. I have, country, rap, disco, zydeco, pop, blues, reggae, classical, baroque, do-wop, opera, ethnic, broadway, and God only knows what else in the stacks. I just really like prog. That doesn't make me a biggot, it just says I have a preference.
 
On that note, I'll point out that there is a difference between preference and quality. I prefer Hostess Twinkies to fine French pastries. I would never suggest that Twinkies are of a higher quality simply on the basis of my preference. On the contrary, I know they're crap and I don't care. I simply prefer them. It's a matter of taste.


"Arf, she said"
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 01:55
Originally posted by meptune meptune wrote:

I for one have been accused of being a musical biggot simply because I champion prog as my favorite genre. However, I can counter that accusation with the evidence of my record collection. I have, country, rap, disco, zydeco, pop, blues, reggae, classical, baroque, do-wop, opera, ethnic, broadway, and God only knows what else in the stacks. I just really like prog. That doesn't make me a biggot, it just says I have a preference.
 
On that note, I'll point out that there is a difference between preference and quality. I prefer Hostess Twinkies to fine French pastries. I would never suggest that Twinkies are of a higher quality simply on the basis of my preference. On the contrary, I know they're crap and I don't care. I simply prefer them. It's a matter of taste.

Lets here it for Twinkies and all crap food we love evrywhere!Clap
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65289
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 02:08
^ I have to have McDonald's once a month or so
Back to Top
fuxi View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2459
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 02:09
I find most metal AND rap unbearably uncouth, but that's got nothing to do with bigotry, it's inherent in those genres themselves. I mean, they're loved by their fans because ther ARE loud, rough and uncouth.

As I don't live in the USA, I'm not much bothered by country, but I used to be suspicious of everything that was even INFLUENCED by it. Now THAT was bigotry! Age twenty, back in the days of Joy Division and the Talking Heads, I didn't want to come across as a hick. Now that I'm more than twice that old I can do what I please and I'll gladly listen to Emmylou Harris, or to acts that are (occasionally) country-inspired, like Ry Cooder or Little Feat.

True bigotry means despising Hot Chocolate, Michael Jackson or the Bee Gees because their music is "commercial". I find their best tunes irresistible and their arrangements great. Once again, this is something I'd never have admitted in 1978! But nowadays I see no reason why they should be inferior to "prog" classics like "I've seen all good people" or "Locomotive Breath". Same inventivity, same sophistication.

I DO draw the line at totally manufactured artists like Madonna or Celine Dion, though. I simply can't stand their putrid smell.
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 02:20
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

I find most metal AND rap unbearably uncouth, but that's got nothing to do with bigotry, it's inherent in those genres themselves. I mean, they're loved by their fans because ther ARE loud, rough and uncouth.

Now this is true bigotry



True bigotry means despising Hot Chocolate, Michael Jackson or the Bee Gees because their music is "commercial".

...and this isn't!

I find their best tunes irresistible and their arrangements great. Once again, this is something I'd never have admitted in 1978! But nowadays I see no reason why they should be inferior to "prog" classics like "I've seen all good people" or "Locomotive Breath". Same inventivity, same sophistication.

I DO draw the line at totally manufactured artists like Madonna or Celine Dion, though. I simply can't stand their putrid smell.
Back to Top
Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 06:25
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

I find most metal AND rap unbearably uncouth, but that's got nothing to do with bigotry, it's inherent in those genres themselves. I mean, they're loved by their fans because ther ARE loud, rough and uncouth.



Funny, because if you met me in real life you'd find I'm not a violent person and I'm quite shy and not very talkative, let alone loud. Yet I like metal and rap.
Back to Top
Raff View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 06:58
Originally posted by Petrovsk Mizinski Petrovsk Mizinski wrote:

Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

I find most metal AND rap unbearably uncouth, but that's got nothing to do with bigotry, it's inherent in those genres themselves. I mean, they're loved by their fans because ther ARE loud, rough and uncouth.



Funny, because if you met me in real life you'd find I'm not a violent person and I'm quite shy and not very talkative, let alone loud. Yet I like metal and rap.


I have to second what Harry just said. In the Eighties I used to be very much into metal, and hung out with metal fans in Rome. Yet, just like Harry, I am a very polite person, quite well-educated and well-spoken, and anything but violent. Ah, generalizationsUnhappy....
Back to Top
Jim Garten View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin & Razor Guru

Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 07:24
I could be wrong here, but I think what Fuxi was saying was not that the fans are loud, rough & uncouth, but the appeal of metal is that the music is loud, rough & uncouth.

As a long time metal fan myself, I know its raw power & agression is (when done well) a large factor in my enjoyment...

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
Back to Top
Raff View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 07:33
You may be right, Jim, but that sentence is not clear at all. Now, I may not be a native speaker of English, but Harry is, and he understood it in the same way as I did.

Anyway, I don't agree with metal being 'rough and uncouth' by definition. For instance, I find a band like Queensryche very sophisticated, both lyrically and musically, and Iron Maiden's Bruce Dickinson is a very literate man, with a history degree, and a writer to boot. Many metal bands have very interesting, thought-provoking lyrics, and here on this site we have quite few examples of bands whose music goes way beyond mere power and aggression. One has the right to dislike the music, but I think stereotyping is always wrong.
Back to Top
Jim Garten View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin & Razor Guru

Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 07:39
Absolutely Raff - but I'd always differentiate between Metal & prog metal; to my ears, metal means bands such as Motorhead, Priest, System Of A Down & so on.

I remember many many arguments in my youth trying to differentiate between heavy metal, heavy rock & hard rock

But that's away from the point...

Back to the original quote - I think had Fuxi meant the fans he would have said "they're loved by their fans because THEY are loud, rough and uncouth" as opposed to "they're loved by their fans because they ARE loud, rough and uncouth"

A small distinction, I know, but as I say, I could be wrong...

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17748
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 10:07
Hi,
 
I don't think, that anyone here is a bigot ...
 
What we have here is "FANS" ... and they do not like to hear that their favorite band is not this or that, or worse ... not good enough and not prog. Even if the term is meaningless and its definition is something that is imaginary and fits into the area of Harry Potter much more than it does music ... but I guess that when you don't know that idiot magic does not matter or hurt anyone, compared to the real thing ... you think the same way about your favorite music ... how could it not be "real music"?
 
In general, to my ear it is all valid music and every single band has a right to play what they wish to play ... what I don't think those bands, or any bunch of fans, do not have a right to do, is tell people what to do and believe in ... I have no issues about you telling me your God stories ... but I do when you say that you know God and I don't. Or you say that Rush is prog and Amon Duul 2 is not.
 
It's a fine line, and I do believe that the bottom line is how much care and respect we have for someone's opinion, and how that person backs it up ... if all you can tell me that something is prog just because you like it ... it's not gonna hold much weight ... but if you can a really good description and informational analyzys of the work that explains what you think, I do believe that your point has merit.
 
Bigotry is when you quote a book for reality ... in other words you don't really believe it anyway ... to the point where you have to quote someone else ... not yourself!  So .. I ask myself ... why would you do that to a band and music that you love?
Back to Top
BaldJean View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 10:32
Originally posted by fighting sleep fighting sleep wrote:

I'm not sure if this topic belongs here, but I'm wondering if I'm alone in my defense of other genres of music besides prog, particularly rap/hip-hop and country/folk music. These genres seem to take regular blows from members of this community, and the only reason I can think of to account for this is the bulk of garbage that is the mainstream music scene.

Nowadays it seems rare to me that rock albums composed entirely of worthwhile songs ever float to the top, especially in popular music. We have to dig deep sometimes for music that is either truly fantastic or speaks to us on a personal level. That's why this site is so great to me.

However, the same applies to other genres of music. I've been listening to a lot of rap and hip hop recently, and I love what I've managed to find that I like because there is a lot of creativity in the music some of these underground and alternative artists are doing. Mike Patton has done some fantastic stuff (Peeping Tom, General Patton vs. the X-ecutioners), and so have Dalek and Atmosphere. I will continue to explore rap because there's a lot of talent that I don't think I've discovered yet.

And country/folk done right is fantastic too. Willie Nelson, Bob Dylan, Wilco, Leonard Cohen; these are all praiseworthy artists. Once again, there are probably plenty of other artists that are overshadowed by the terrifying awfulness of the pop-country singers Dead

So I pose my question to those people who don't have a problem with writing off rap or country with insulting comments; can you justify that level of bigotry with actual experience listening to the music? I'm looking for reasonable arguments against accepting these forms of music.

And to the main body of the community: what do progressive rock listeners think of these genres and our attitudes toward them?

Feel free to move/remove this post if it doesn't quite fit in this forum.

if you can show me some rap / hip-hop that does NOT have that, in my opinion, boring underlying steady beat, I'd be quite willing to listen to it, though I must admit I dislike the way the vocals are delivered in these bands too, but that's probably because of this steady beat. I have nothing at all against the spoken word (the lyrics are usually of rap or hip-hop are usually delivered in a sprechgesang), but I dislike it when they speak in a way that totally follows the steady beat of the music. it is too predictable for my taste.
there is of course also the question if music without that steady beat could still be called rap or hip-hop, since it seems to be one of the defining elements of it


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Back to Top
angelmk View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: November 22 2006
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 1955
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 11:20
Originally posted by fighting sleep fighting sleep wrote:

I'm not sure if this topic belongs here, but I'm wondering if I'm alone in my defense of other genres of music besides prog, particularly rap/hip-hop and country/folk music. These genres seem to take regular blows from members of this community, and the only reason I can think of to account for this is the bulk of garbage that is the mainstream music scene. 

However, the same applies to other genres of music. I've been listening to a lot of rap and hip hop recently, and I love what I've managed to find that I like because there is a lot of creativity in the music some of these underground and alternative artists are doing. 

 I'm looking for reasonable arguments against accepting these forms of music.

you can defend rap as long you wish, BUT it is music to be  bashed Smile. i don't like rap at all, to be more precise i don't consider rap as music , just a few beats and some annoying singing(if it could be called singing at all,i doubt) . and why bigots? for not liking rap? LOLLOL  there is nothing in rap to be liked after all IMO. and those lyrics and rappers attitude is other thing i hate most .. chicks , cars, money, houses, insults..no form of art  in rap i could notice..  and i cannot love all forms of music, what would be like if i like them all at once Britney Spears, 50 cent, Eminem, Justin Timberlake, Rush, Dimmu Borgir , ..well this is not possible , so someone is MAKING music and succeding , other ones just TRYING to make music  ,but failing .. 

Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

I find most metal AND rap unbearably uncouth, but that's got nothing to do with bigotry, it's inherent in those genres themselves. I mean, they're loved by their fans because ther ARE loud, rough and uncouth. 
i have to  defend Metal here , as long time being Metal fan .. so un·couth 
1. Crude; unrefined.
2. Awkward or clumsy; ungraceful.
3. Archaic Foreign; unfamiliar.

i found this definition for uncouth , and totally disagree , you are generalizing that's not good , and Metal being uncouth pfffffff .. i wouldn't agree with this for anything in the world even being put on guillotine with few seconds left for living.. there are various types of metal , and if you are implying for ex . brutal death ,grindcore, raw black metal  to be uncouth, so you could listen Prog Metal,Doom metal .. maybe it could change your views about metal.. Fans ARE loud, rough and uncouth??? i don't know how did you came with this conclusion, but totaly wrong .. i 'am just the opposite of these characteristics  of yours and here is a suggestion for you to check .. 
 





Back to Top
stonebeard View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 11:23
Summoning are great! I also recommend Drudkh. 
Back to Top
angelmk View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: November 22 2006
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 1955
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 11:28
^^ Drudkh are awesome , superb black metal,  with many folkish and Prog influences .. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.186 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.