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VanderGraafKommandöh View Drop Down
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 17:14
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

We all know Jesus was middle eastern looking! My guess is he was olive-ish colored.

And to Rico:
What about the resurrection then? And it's purpose?

Again, I don't believe the Bible. There is no proof the resurrection happened. Correct me if I'm wrong, but outside the Bible....there is no evidence for it. Just like the rest of the Bible it is a story. It's purpose? To inspire faith. That's the point of the whole Bible.


See my latest post in the Christian Thread, it overlaps with yours. Wink
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 17:29
Hmmm, the Atheist and Christian threads have become quite intertwined.
Guess that battle will rage on forever!

Unless we reach a day when atheism finally conquers the world, OR jesus comes back and says "yea im the son of god, so all you atheists epic fail!"


OR Buddhism will become the one global religion. I'm hoping for this!


Edited by JJLehto - June 20 2009 at 17:33
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 17:41
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Hmmm, the Atheist and Christian threads have become quite intertwined.
Guess that battle will rage on forever!

Unless we reach a day when atheism finally conquers the world, OR jesus comes back and says "yea im the son of god, so all you atheists epic fail!"


OR Buddhism will become the one global religion. I'm hoping for this!


You tuned into mainstream Christianity?  It practically is Buddhism. Dead
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VanderGraafKommandöh View Drop Down
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 17:51
I wouldn't say that to a Buddhist, Rob. Ermm
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 17:55
Originally posted by James James wrote:

I wouldn't say that to a Buddhist, Rob. Ermm


Why not?  I don't pretend to believe Buddhism is truth.  I'm not exactly what you'd call politically correct, James.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 18:49
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Old Testament:  All the prophets of the Old Testament are condemned, becausethey never knew Christ.
Not meaning to be picky, or to start another debate, but isn't this one contradictory? If those OT prophets are in a position to be saved, then they will have knowledge of all earthly and heavenly events following their departure from this earthly realm, so will have knowledge of all inhabitants of heaven, past and present.
 
I believe that's a clear contradiction by those who pretend to understand the Bible in a literal sense, they read: John 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
 
And of course they say nobody except Christians can be saved.
 
But that's unfair, because in the Old Testament God gave the 10 Commandments and the rules from thedeuteronomy  for the people of Israel, those outside the people of Israel are not forced to keep them.
 
Jesus also said:
 
Matthew 5:  19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
 
So, it's eniough to keep the ten Commandments and teach them, to be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven
 
That's why the catholic Chuch through the Pope talking ex cathedra said that every Christian member can reach salvation and even outside the Christianity if the person follows a moral code and searchs for God.
 
Iván
 
 
            
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 19:04
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Hmmm, the Atheist and Christian threads have become quite intertwined.
Guess that battle will rage on forever!

Unless we reach a day when atheism finally conquers the world, OR jesus comes back and says "yea im the son of god, so all you atheists epic fail!"


OR Buddhism will become the one global religion. I'm hoping for this!


You tuned into mainstream Christianity?  It practically is Buddhism. Dead
 
which one is mainstream christianity?
Confused
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 19:25
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Hmmm, the Atheist and Christian threads have become quite intertwined.
Guess that battle will rage on forever!

Unless we reach a day when atheism finally conquers the world, OR jesus comes back and says "yea im the son of god, so all you atheists epic fail!"


OR Buddhism will become the one global religion. I'm hoping for this!


You tuned into mainstream Christianity?  It practically is Buddhism. Dead
 
which one is mainstream christianity?
Confused


Mainstream "Christianity" is what I call "pop Christianity."  Platitudes.  Beliefs that will appeal to anybody.  According to the Bible, Christianity offends.  In lieu of the Bible, they have teachings similar to those of Buddhism (read: non-offensive ones).  They are typically the ones with the 3000+ member churches.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 19:35
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
Jesus also said:
 
Matthew 5:  19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
 
So, it's eniough to keep the ten Commandments and teach them, to be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven
 
That's why the catholic Chuch through the Pope talking ex cathedra said that every Christian member can reach salvation and even outside the Christianity if the person follows a moral code and searchs for God. 
The gospel of Matthew is thought to have been written by a jewish-christian (in the old sense of the term), so would naturally reflect both jewish and christian views, the sermon on the mount was a reinforcing and/or reinterpretation of mosaic law. (It was also a slight dig at the Pharisees for teaching the law but not practicing it). Jesus at that time was still regarded as a rabbi and teacher of the jewish faith, so it is natural that what he is reported to have said at that time would reflect that.
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Points: 65266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 19:48
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The gospel of Matthew is thought to have been written by a jewish-christian (in the old sense of the term), so would naturally reflect both jewish and christian views, the sermon on the mount was a reinforcing and/or reinterpretation of mosaic law. (It was also a slight dig at the Pharisees for teaching the law but not practicing it). Jesus at that time was still regarded as a rabbi and teacher of the jewish faith, so it is natural that what he is reported to have said at that time would reflect that.


sorry for my simpleton view here but this is the part of Biblical faith that's always interested/confused me-- Jesus was a practicing Jew till the day he died, his followers too, and in many ways Christ's teachings as later carried on by the new Christian movement are notably similar to Jewish cultural beliefs as forgiveness, tolerance, faith, etc.  Seems to me if one believed in Jesus, they were a true Jew rather than a 'Christian'.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 20:02
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The gospel of Matthew is thought to have been written by a jewish-christian (in the old sense of the term), so would naturally reflect both jewish and christian views, the sermon on the mount was a reinforcing and/or reinterpretation of mosaic law. (It was also a slight dig at the Pharisees for teaching the law but not practicing it). Jesus at that time was still regarded as a rabbi and teacher of the jewish faith, so it is natural that what he is reported to have said at that time would reflect that.


sorry for my simpleton view here but this is the part of Biblical faith that's always interested/confused me-- Jesus was a practicing Jew till the day he died, his followers too, and in many ways Christ's teachings as later carried on by the new Christian movement are notably similar to Jewish cultural beliefs as forgiveness, tolerance, faith, etc.  Seems to me if one believed in Jesus, they were a true Jew rather than a 'Christian'.


I'm sure one of our christian friends will chip-in with a reply, but my opinion of this is that the key point is the resurrection, the belief that jesus was the son of god and the fulfillment of jewish messianic prophesy. In religion there are three opposing views of this - Christian: he died and was resurrected, Jewish: he died and Islamic: he didn't die, but was assumed up to heaven. Once the disciples and followers started preaching the resurrection then they were no longer of the Jewish faith


Edited by Dean - June 20 2009 at 20:03
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 20:24
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The gospel of Matthew is thought to have been written by a jewish-christian (in the old sense of the term), so would naturally reflect both jewish and christian views, the sermon on the mount was a reinforcing and/or reinterpretation of mosaic law. (It was also a slight dig at the Pharisees for teaching the law but not practicing it). Jesus at that time was still regarded as a rabbi and teacher of the jewish faith, so it is natural that what he is reported to have said at that time would reflect that.
 
Yes Dean it's clear that, but it's still a transcription of the words of Jesus, something tat is coincident with:
 
Quote Matthew 19:
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

 18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

   Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'a]'>[a] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'b]'>[b]"

This is enough to get eternal life, the same story is told in Mark 10:17-22 and Luke 18:18-23, so it's absolutely coherent, though Jesus asks the man to give everything to the poor and follow him, it's obnly a requisite for perfection.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 20 2009 at 20:25
            
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 20:42
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The gospel of Matthew is thought to have been written by a jewish-christian (in the old sense of the term), so would naturally reflect both jewish and christian views, the sermon on the mount was a reinforcing and/or reinterpretation of mosaic law. (It was also a slight dig at the Pharisees for teaching the law but not practicing it). Jesus at that time was still regarded as a rabbi and teacher of the jewish faith, so it is natural that what he is reported to have said at that time would reflect that.
 
Yes Dean it's clear that, but it's still a transcription of the words of Jesus, something tat is coincident with:
 
Quote Matthew 19:
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

 18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

   Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'a]'>[a] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'b]'>[b]"

This is enough to get eternal life, the same story is told in Mark 10:17-22 and Luke 18:18-23, so it's absolutely coherent, though Jesus asks the man to give everything to the poor and follow him, it's obnly a requisite for perfection.
 
Iván
The gospel of Matthew was written 50-100 years after the events so are unlikely to be an accurate transcription of what was said, and it was probably not written by the disciple Matthew Levi himself. It is also believed that the books of Matthew, Mark and Luke are based upon each other (there is some argument as to which came first, but the general opinion is that Matt & Luke copied from Mark). Either way, it is evident that two of the books were derived from one account (either Mark or Matthew depending upon your point of view) so they cannot be used as independant accounts to support each other.
 
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 20:49
Ivan, if you care, I have responded to you in the Christian thread, so as not to bother our non-believing friends.
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2009 at 21:18
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Ivan, if you care, I have responded to you in the Christian thread, so as not to bother our non-believing friends.


Dosn't bug me! I enjoy seeing the debate. Besides I'm pretty sure you're thread is filled with us anyway LOL
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2009 at 13:10
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Ivan, if you care, I have responded to you in the Christian thread, so as not to bother our non-believing friends.


Dosn't bug me! I enjoy seeing the debate. Besides I'm pretty sure you're thread is filled with us anyway LOL
There's something perversely surreal about watching two christians debating in an atheist thread that I was quite enjoying - I could pop into the christian thread and watch it there I'spose.
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2009 at 16:43
I know.  I also found it quite amusing that two Christians were disagreeing with each other.

Most of us atheists seem to agree with each other. Wink  Of course, agnostics do somewhat disagree with us though.
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Points: 6797 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2009 at 16:50
As an agnost I'm not sure if I disagree with you or not?
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2009 at 16:55
Originally posted by James James wrote:


Most of us atheists seem to agree with each other. Wink  Of course, agnostics do somewhat disagree with us though.


You see, that's because agnostics and atheists are not the same. They disagree by definition. Wink
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Points: 46301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2009 at 17:18
Originally posted by James James wrote:

I know.  I also found it quite amusing that two Christians were disagreeing with each other.



Don't understand your point. It's just debate. Besides, you can't expect every Christian to believe or see things exactly the same way.






Edited by Ricochet - June 21 2009 at 17:18
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