The Christian Thread |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: June 20 2009 at 18:13 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
No, as far as I know, Jesus didn't write anything. This matter is about as reliable as a a newspaper columnist telling me what someone said. I can choose to believe the writer or not. It's heresay, is it not? But still, this isn't about proof- it's about evidence. And I do have that. Anyway, I'm going to watch 300. I'll be back later. |
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
Posted: June 20 2009 at 18:18 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I read that heresy, instead of hearsay.
I mean no offence by the way, I just think it's a bit unwise to call them Jesus' writings, when they're not. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: June 20 2009 at 18:26 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Did I say Jesus wrote something? I don't think I did... |
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: June 20 2009 at 18:38 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I wonder if Jesus was a good carpenter. If he was crap, then that's probably why he went into the messiah business.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
Posted: June 20 2009 at 19:05 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Well I don't think what he said was also what was written either. That's what I meant by that comment. |
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The T
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: June 20 2009 at 19:13 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
there's a problem with this... being a carpenter could have given him the means to survive.... was, even for its time, more of a profession.... the messiah business wasn't going to take him nowhere financially if we can use that word, so i guess his intentions must've been much truer than you think, even if we agree he was just a man's son.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: June 20 2009 at 20:50 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The passage continues: 20The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" 21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and (U)sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have (V)treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Clearly, contrary to what you say, obeying the law is not enough. The rich man asked what he was lacking- Jesus said to follow him. Salvation therefore is following Christ. This is the case all throughout the New Testament. It teaches that following Christ is essential to faith in God, and without faith, it is impossible to please God. |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65266 |
Posted: June 20 2009 at 21:26 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Perhaps the ultimate goal, then, is for man to follow his better nature without Christ's help, that way we could have morality without evangelism.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: June 20 2009 at 21:26 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sorry Epignosis, in my Bible Jesus replies:
But he was clear, to reach salvation is only required to respect the Commandments.
This is enough to reach heaven, this is the point where Jesus stoped.
For PERFECTION (Which as we know is not reachable byy man) he had to give everything to the poor to gain a treasutre in heaven (with this ACT he had already reached Heaven) and follow Jesus ios a logical consequence for those to believe in him.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 20 2009 at 21:35 |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: June 20 2009 at 21:41 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jesus says "Be perfect as my Father in Heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48- same chapter you have there) Unreachable eh? Yep...only if you depend on yourself to reach holiness (called perfection in some versions). Jude 24-25 says this: Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. Perfection is a process God guarantees His children. It does not come immediately, but is a process brought on by trial and troubles. No matter how you figure it, the bottom line is this: Follow Jesus. Follow the commandments? The rich man said he had done that already, but Jesus said he was lacking- and by virtue of his question, the man knew he was lacking something. Now a question for you: Do you believe Jesus when he says, "No man comes to the Father except through me?" (John 14:6) Very well- you said we shouldn't take that literally. So please tell me what it means non-literally? (By the way, I have at least 20 scriptures that say the exact same thing as John 14:6). |
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: June 20 2009 at 23:21 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: June 20 2009 at 23:24 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I did bum it off a comic, if that's him, but it bears repeating. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: June 21 2009 at 01:35 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I forgot I'm talking with non Catholics, we believe perfection is only achieved by God, we may try, maybe achieve RELATIVE perfection, but nothing more unless you are a Saint or in state of beatitude.
Absolutely disagree, this is the version of the Catholic Bible and it's read clearly step by step::
Part One, what do you need to reach heaven:
He's telling to a specific man to leave all hios possesions, his family and follow him, that for us is a special call reserved for a few.
Yes, I do, and Jesus took care of that with his sacrifice for allm of us, so all humans through his sacrifice are entitled to salvation, not just those whio follow him
Remember Matthew 5: 19 also says:
The text is clear "The person who keeps and teaches them will be considered great in Heaven" it's transparent, if you follow and teach the Commandments, you will be called great in Heaven...point, nothing more is required.
I'm sure this won't mean a thing for you, gut the vatican II Council specified
In other words i some cases good acts and following commands of conscience is enough to be saved.
I don't doubt it, but no scripture cancels another one and Matthew 5:19 and 19:17 are clear for me..
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 21 2009 at 11:55 |
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Queen By-Tor
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 13 2006 Location: Xanadu Status: Offline Points: 16111 |
Posted: June 21 2009 at 01:38 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
How about we just admit that gay people aren't sinners and be done with it
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: June 21 2009 at 01:50 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Catholic Church is specific being gay is not a sin per se, the sin is having sex outside marriage, the exact sin for hetero or homosexuals.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 21 2009 at 02:09 |
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Queen By-Tor
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 13 2006 Location: Xanadu Status: Offline Points: 16111 |
Posted: June 21 2009 at 01:52 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
oh well then.
Send me to hell in a handbasket! Because I'm not apologizing for that either! |
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 22 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4079 |
Posted: June 21 2009 at 10:43 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
What I don't get is why Christians aren't all paupers. If Chrisitans are supposed to try to be perfect and they are required to sell all of their posessions to be perfect....what am I missing here?
Sounds very much like Buddhism as well in the sense of materialism.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: June 21 2009 at 12:53 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
To Ivan (I didn't want to quote to avoid a large block of text):
Here are three things Jesus said, which I think sum up the issue pretty succinctly. John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." Luke 6:46: "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" John 14:15- "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Knowing Christ is the only way to eternal life. You cannot follow Christ without repentance (A man cannot serve two masters). Hence, you cannot be following Christ if you are not obedient to him. So you are right to emphasize following God's commandments, but John 17:3 is how we are able to keep his commands (by knowing God- which is necessary for the first commandment anyway: "You shall have no other gods before me"). Without abiding in Jesus (following and knowing him), we cannot please God: "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. (John 15:5-6) |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: June 21 2009 at 13:16 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
As a very short answer, I'll just say that the overriding command of Jesus is to follow him. In the Ancient Near East, this was almost always land. Matthew, for instance, was a tax collector (hated by his own people), and in Matthew chapter nine, Jesus made a beeline to him and said "Follow me." Matthew did just that. He left his booth of customs, never to return. But that very night, Jesus and other tax collectors were having a meal in Matthew's house. Literally following Jesus required leaving everything behind. We today do not have a physical presence to physically follow. We do however recognize that all we have in this world belongs to God, and we are to be faithful stewards of all things. This means we cannot place our love of possessions over Him (and note that people in the Old Testament were severely punished for doing just that, even valuing family over the Lord- see 1 Samuel 2:29). |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35886 |
Posted: June 21 2009 at 14:11 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Regarding Mathew 19, it's helpful to read all of it: http://sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/mat019.htm
The last verses from the King James version:
It is open to interpretation, and one can read the different bible versions differently, but of course it is a call on people to follow him and not just adhere to the ten commandments. It's one thing to abide by laws, it's another to really respect them and not just do no wrong, but do good and be righteous,. It may be enough to achieve everlasting life, eventually, by merely following the commandments, but those who make greater sacrifices to follow the path of Jesus shall receive much greater rewards. The last line is interesting. Many of the Earth's privileged (say with money and power) will be the last to receive God's rewards, whereas those who suffer and sacrifice to do God's will be the first to be rewarded with everlasting life and other rewards. Anyway, regarding Buddhism and Christianity, there are many similarities. Teachings tended to spread quickly in that part of the world (the silk road brought trade and ideas), and I suspect that Jesus was influenced by Buddhist teachings. My old church minister followed Buddhist teachings as well as Christian (he considered himself Christian in faith and Buddhist and Christian in philosophy). There has been a strong multi-faith movement within that church, and the idea that there are different roads to God (and one need not follow a particular religion but one must be principled -- moral and righteous). |
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