Album Discussions: Tales From Topographic Oceans

Just listening to TfTO now and I have to say that after the first track it starts getting dire indeed. Not my cup of tea I'm afraid. Now Yessongs - 10/10

I realized that I never actually posted my opinion here...

This was actually the first Yes album I ever acquired, and the second prog album, so it was a bit of a plunge in the deep end. I loved it at the time, though, and it ended up getting me into Yes pretty hardcore. After a while, though, I became kind of torn. Revealing Science of God is, in my mind, an incredible cut and one of the band's best songs. The Remembering, on the other hand, has very few memorable moments (ironically enough). The keyboard bits are cool but other than that this track just isn't very interesting, and sitting through twenty minutes of it is almost impossible for me.

The Ancients is actually one that I haven't heard in a long time, so I can't really comment on it. I do think that Ritual is a pretty good song. I think it's best in the context of the album, as it recaps on a lot of themes, I believe, and so it's a lot more powerful if you're hearing it at the end of the other three, rather than just on it's own. Regardless, I still think it's a pretty good song. Not a big fan of the Nous Sommes Du Soleil thing, but other than that. This song actually seems to be hinting a fair bit towards Gates of Delirium, in my mind, though I doubt they even had conceived of Relayer when recording this.

I haven't listened to this one in ages though so perhaps I should go give it a spin and comment on it later.

jammun wrote: *Sighs... all this talk about Tales -- now I'm going to have to listen to it...again...and try to see what everyone sees/hears in it.  And yes I've been listening to it (not all that often lately and admittedly, but who keeps going to a dry well expecting water after a while?) for 30+ years and still don't get it.  I find the first three minutes of Heart of the Sunrise more compelling -- more an example of this band reaching for and achieving greatness -- than the total of Tales.  But back to the well I go.

mr.cub wrote: Epignosis wrote: I would just like to record my absolute angst that this masterpiece is currently #99 on the Symphonic prog chart.  I mean, really- Phil Collins-led Genesis is higher than this?     AMEN!!!

^ They did: on Gates Of Delirium! 

Alan White's drum sound on Gates was too bright and brittle. The sound on Tales was so natural, without excess highs or that slam/crack thing that too many drumsets get. Gates is a tremendous recording, of course, and, it now occurs to me, that, since the music is all about war, battle and the aftermath of struggle, that the harsher percussion is actually quite suitable for the music.

88melter

Tales From Topographic Oceans is a good, interesting album. Admittedly, it hasn't a tenth the exact-moment-of-ignition-and-spark focus that so characterised the incredible Close To The Edge, and replacing Bruford is difficult to impossible (White's alright, but Bruford at that time was second only to 73's Carl Palmer and Billy Cobham efforts). It's a departure in style from CTTE, abstract, chaotic and pushing the envelope of sounds rather than songs...

Four stars for me, shows off Yes' immense collective talent, pretty interesting for what it does, and three of the songs are pretty strong, even without the CTTE altogether-memorability thing. On the minus side, the folky bits of The Remembering feel quite awkward, and it simply isn't as memorable or as dedicated as Close To The Edge. Not sure whether I'd put it over the follow-up or not.

And also, Anderson's lyrics and vocals were absolutely perfect for the band and the album on CTTE, those on TFTO simply do not convince me in the same way. Much more limited to imagery and feel than the poetic accuracy he had on CTTE.


Edited by TGM: Orb - June 21 2009 at 12:46

I am trying to figure out what Bruford's level is, exactly, or even approximately.

   Mr. White is a different musician. He ought to want to reach his own level. Or do the writers here mean that there is some technical or purely musical level that Bruford had going that Alan could not match or equal?

   Bruford has said in print that he always thought of YES as a jazz band with vocals. Jon and Chris said they welcomed Alan into the band because he was/is a rock drummer, and YES was/is a rock band. So, while Bruford made the sound of early YES so distinctive, with his rimshot sound, (developed to overcome volume issues onstage, by the way), and his Blakey-style approach to drum fills and patterns, Alan made the odd time signatures ROCK, and put more emphasis on the on beats, not the syncopation.

   So, I like Alan's playing and his overall approach. I don't like the sound of his snare these days, it's a big tin can to my ears, and his technique stinks, as he keeps the sticks on the drumheads and cymbals, instead of using the rebound, and allowing the heads and shells to resonate.

   Bruford is an honest, dedicated musician with a real sense of his own personal aesthetic. Alan is a friendly, easy-going rocker who anchors the band with good basic drumming, and is more interested in scuba and boats than music these days.

   oh, well...

88melter

Epignosis wrote: The Quiet One wrote: TGM: Orb wrote: Tales From Topographic Oceans is a good, interesting album. Admittedly, it hasn't a tenth the exact-moment-of-ignition-and-spark focus that so characterised the incredible Close To The Edge, and replacing Bruford is difficult to impossible (White's alright, but Bruford at that time was second only to 73's Carl Palmer and Billy Cobham efforts). It's a departure in style from CTTE, abstract, chaotic and pushing the envelope of sounds rather than songs... Agree on every bit! Alan White would shine in Relayer, but by no means he'd reach Bruford's level. Do I have to paddle you again, boy?

You wouldn't dare!

88melter wrote: I am trying to figure out what Bruford's level is, exactly, or even approximately.    Mr. White is a different musician. He ought to want to reach his own level. Or do the writers here mean that there is some technical or purely musical level that Bruford had going that Alan could not match or equal?    Bruford has said in print that he always thought of YES as a jazz band with vocals. Jon and Chris said they welcomed Alan into the band because he was/is a rock drummer, and YES was/is a rock band. So, while Bruford made the sound of early YES so distinctive, with his rimshot sound, (developed to overcome volume issues onstage, by the way), and his Blakey-style approach to drum fills and patterns, Alan made the odd time signatures ROCK, and put more emphasis on the on beats, not the syncopation.    So, I like Alan's playing and his overall approach. I don't like the sound of his snare these days, it's a big tin can to my ears, and his technique stinks, as he keeps the sticks on the drumheads and cymbals, instead of using the rebound, and allowing the heads and shells to resonate.    Bruford is an honest, dedicated musician with a real sense of his own personal aesthetic. Alan is a friendly, easy-going rocker who anchors the band with good basic drumming, and is more interested in scuba and boats than music these days.    oh, well... 88melter

Good post.

Perhaps an unfair, perhaps a fair analysis. Yes(,) musicians aren't aiming to be the same overarching figure, one archdrummer or archkeyboardist, and they do have different styles. On the other hand, there either is or isn't a reasonable level of comparison (particularly when you're comparing a replacement to a predecessor) they can be subjected to... some synthesis of perceived technicality, musicality and received enjoyment (and none of those, not even technicality is objective [which matters more, being able to play faster, having more 'touch' or being able to play in more complex time signatures, or being able to play using more complex techniques - e.g. multiple-stick work etc.?]).

So, essentially, Bruford's subjective 'level' as proposed by those three criteria, is much higher than White's... again, that's not saying White should try to be Bruford, merely that I think White's combination of skill and style isn't as interesting and 'good' to hear as Bruford's. Carl Palmer and Billy Cobham, for instance, both have markedly different styles to Bruford - I'd probably prefer them, so maybe their 'level' would be greater in my mind.

Technically, I admit, I know nothing about drummers, my top five would come out as Palmer, Cobham, Bruford, McCulloch or Hiseman and Morello or something like that. It'll probably change as I get more acquainted with different drummers. Now, clearly, there's a jazz tinge to that, so obviously I'll think Bruford's a somewhat more interesting drummer... what's interesting about his particular work, however, is that he generally has a real feeling of space and contrast, and his intensity when he goes after it is more sharp, powerful and impressive for me. So, that's two respects where Bruford simply comes across as better; I don't really care all that much for the steady beat-keepers relative to the unique sticks-men.

Well, I could have said all this in a couple of sentences: Bruford adds something to the sound of bands he's in, I can usually tell if it's him drumming, and I almost always actively notice his work. The same goes for Phil Collins, Jon Hiseman, Guy Evans, Mitch Mitchell, the works... Alan White's 'just' a drummer to my ears, so he doesn't get the same attention from me.