SR V: To boldly go where no room has gone before

James wrote: MovingPictures07 wrote: James wrote: In my (and most peoples') opinion, you're very much wrong, Alex.  There's no right or wrong opinion though. Okay, then. You're WRONG for liking VDGG, because they're objectively a horrible band. See how that goes? Not at all. Horrible does not equate to Not Talented.

Sometimes it does, but alright, it depends on what your definition of "talented" is. Don't you see that there's only subjective evaluations of that though? There's no such universal thing as "talent".

That's why you see some prog fans going around bashing DT and saying they have no talent and they're just a bunch of w**kers all the time. Because, according to them, they don't have talent. I think most of them are not giving the band enough of a chance with their decisions and I disagree entirely, but who am I to say that their opinions are wrong?

MovingPictures07 wrote: James wrote: MovingPictures07 wrote: James wrote: In my (and most peoples') opinion, you're very much wrong, Alex.  There's no right or wrong opinion though. Okay, then. You're WRONG for liking VDGG, because they're objectively a horrible band. See how that goes? Not at all. Horrible does not equate to Not Talented. Sometimes it does, but alright, it depends on what your definition of "talented" is. Don't you see that there's only subjective evaluations of that though? There's no such universal thing as "talent". That's why you see some prog fans going around bashing DT and saying they have no talent and they're just a bunch of w**kers all the time. Because, according to them, they don't have talent. I think most of them are not giving the band enough of a chance with their decisions and I disagree entirely, but who am I to say that their opinions are wrong?

You have every right to say they're wrong, because they are wrong.

Dream Theater are talented musicians.  I may dislike them a lot and do not especially care for them that much but they do have talent.  I mean compositionally too.

I just do not care for them.

That Mingus was a sh*t pianist.  So random.  He's not exactly that guy on the subway who plays all those brilliantly whacky out-of-tune drones on a Casio (and with presets), now is he?

MovingPictures07 wrote: Evolutionary_Sleeper wrote: Time for some Ice Cream + Charles Mingus. rawr.......... That's a hell of a combo. Which album(s)?

Mingus Ah Um, got it on a whim..So far so good.

James wrote: MovingPictures07 wrote: James wrote: MovingPictures07 wrote: James wrote: In my (and most peoples') opinion, you're very much wrong, Alex.  There's no right or wrong opinion though. Okay, then. You're WRONG for liking VDGG, because they're objectively a horrible band. See how that goes? Not at all. Horrible does not equate to Not Talented. Sometimes it does, but alright, it depends on what your definition of "talented" is. Don't you see that there's only subjective evaluations of that though? There's no such universal thing as "talent". That's why you see some prog fans going around bashing DT and saying they have no talent and they're just a bunch of w**kers all the time. Because, according to them, they don't have talent. I think most of them are not giving the band enough of a chance with their decisions and I disagree entirely, but who am I to say that their opinions are wrong? You have every right to say they're wrong, because they are wrong. Dream Theater are talented musicians.  I may dislike them a lot and do not especially care for them that much but they do have talent.  I mean compositionally too. I just do not care for them.

We agree there, and usually---given any particular band/artist and if both of us were asked the question whether the band/artist was talented or not, we'd agree, because we generally have similar definitions of it.

When it gets to the grey area though... like The Beatles (for me), Animal Collective (for you), or whatever other example---doesn't matter, the example is irrelevant---, then that's when it gets harder to tell. Everyone will have a different understanding of what talent is, and sometimes there are other factors than simple sheer virtuosity or perceived songwriting skills.

In the end, it's up to the person to decide whether someone is talented or not. Since we're both quite knowledgeable of music, it's different... but if you were talking with some random person who would not typically include music study in their hobbies but liked music, then you would find a completely different definition of talent.

It wouldn't mean that person was wrong per se; it would simply be a difference in opinion. For example, there is a difference between an opinion and a defined fact. Even if someone is entirely unknowledgeable when it comes to music, anything that even slightly concerns any matter of subjective opinion cannot be proven right or wrong.

In contrast with: If I were to say that the meter is something completely different than what it actually is, I'd be wrong. Why? Because as a human race we have defined the term "meter" to have a particularly widely-held meaning in order to effectively organize the world around us and for communication and intellectual purposes. It's the same thing as if someone were to say 2 + 2 = 5. In that case, they'd be wrong, because it is defined by individuals that the truth is 2 + 2 = 4.

There is no objectively defined term for "talent". Even if you know alot more about music than someone else does and you have that knowledge in your favor, your opinion may hold more weight to some people... but the fact of the matter is that others won't care. And there's no objective basis for saying any one person is right and any other person is wrong.

That's just how it works.

James wrote: That Mingus was a sh*t pianist.  So random.  He's not exactly that guy on the subway who plays all those brilliantly whacky out-of-tune drones on a Casio (and with presets), now is he?

I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic.

Padraic wrote: I am objectively tired.

Then go to bed.

MovingPictures07 wrote: Evolutionary_Sleeper wrote: MovingPictures07 wrote: Evolutionary_Sleeper wrote: Time for some Ice Cream + Charles Mingus. rawr.......... That's a hell of a combo. Which album(s)? Mingus Ah Um, got it on a whim..So far so good. That's a good album. If you don't have it already, get The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady. That's my favorite Mingus album I've heard. Pure gold.

Will do.

Tangerine Dream ftw

birdwithteeth11 wrote: MovingPictures07 wrote: Padraic wrote: I am objectively tired. Then go to bed. He's objectively choosing to stay awake. And I objectively think you have a hole in your head instead of a brain.

You think wrong.