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staunchally 
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 17 2007
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Points: 38
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 Posted: June 05 2009 at 13:52 |
 Negoba wrote:
"The system we learned says we're equal under law. But the streets are reality, the weak and poor must fall."
"Religion and sex are power plays. Manipulate the people for the money the people for the money they pay. Selling skin, selling God. The numbers look the same on their credit cards."
"Fighting fire with empty words while the fat get fat and the poor stay poor and the rich get rich and the cops get paid to turn away as the 1% rules America."
Sounds like fantasy to me. |
Hmm...Do I detect sarcasm?  These lyrics illustrate my point. Most religious people are honest, upright citizens who have no desire to manipulate anyone. The idea that they do is a media concoction.
The other lyrics are cliche. 1% rules America? I don't have much money but I can do anything I want. If I'm not happy with my lot in life, well it's my own fault.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: June 05 2009 at 13:54 |
I listen to music mainly for the sounds rather than lyrics, but when I do listen for lyrics, I prefer music that doesn't distract me. That's why folk and basic rock has better lyrics, because that's the focal point. When the lyrics and the music both demand your full attention it can be exhausting. (See the Lamb)
Edited by Negoba - June 05 2009 at 13:55
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: June 05 2009 at 13:59 |
staunchally wrote:
Negoba wrote:
"The system we learned says we're equal under law. But the streets are reality, the weak and poor must fall."
"Religion and sex are power plays. Manipulate the people for the money the people for the money they pay. Selling skin, selling God. The numbers look the same on their credit cards."
"Fighting fire with empty words while the fat get fat and the poor stay poor and the rich get rich and the cops get paid to turn away as the 1% rules America."
Sounds like fantasy to me. |
Hmm...Do I detect sarcasm? These lyrics illustrate my point. Most religious people are honest, upright citizens who have no desire to manipulate anyone. The idea that they do is a media concoction.
The other lyrics are cliche. 1% rules America? I don't have much money but I can do anything I want. If I'm not happy with my lot in life, well it's my own fault. |
Umm, oh kay.
The lyrics are 20 years old, and to some extent they were cliche even then, but the Bush presidency made it not very fantasy-like, and certainly not very funny.
Geoff Tate is heavy handed but it doesn't mean he's wrong.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Luke. J
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 07 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 380
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Posted: June 05 2009 at 14:07 |
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Peter Hammill has some interesting societal and philosophical aspects in his lyrics. Gabriel and Waters may have something to say (even if Waters can be annoying doing that). Add Gildenlöw (yes, he certainly has something to say.. sometimes..).
What really is going on my nerves is that some people these days feel like repeating "Everything is baaad.. sooo baaaaad" in different variations would be the most intellectual and wise thing to say. Maybe we are running into a crash of all there is and I am just inable to see it coming. It also could be possible that lyrical depression is going on my nerves. Playing Nostradamus is not "something to say", at least to me.
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staunchally
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 17 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 38
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Posted: June 05 2009 at 14:10 |
Negoba wrote:
staunchally wrote:
[QUOTE=Negoba]"The system we learned says we're equal under law. But the streets are reality, the weak and poor must fall."
"Religion and sex are power plays. Manipulate the people for the money the people for the money they pay. Selling skin, selling God. The numbers look the same on their credit cards."
"Fighting fire with empty words while the fat get fat and the poor stay poor and the rich get rich and the cops get paid to turn away as the 1% rules America."
Sounds like fantasy to me. |
Hmm...Do I detect sarcasm? These lyrics illustrate my point. Most religious people are honest, upright citizens who have no desire to manipulate anyone. The idea that they do is a media concoction.
The other lyrics are cliche. 1% rules America? I don't have much money but I can do anything I want. If I'm not happy with my lot in life, well it's my own fault. |
Umm, oh kay.
The lyrics are 20 years old, and to some extent they were cliche even then, but the Bush presidency made it not very fantasy-like, and certainly not very funny.
Geoff Tate is heavy handed but it doesn't mean he's wrong.
What's wrong with the Bush Presidency? You see where this will inevitably go? If an artist holds leftist viewpoints he's being deep and thoughtful. If an artist expresses a conservative view, he will be derided as "reactionary", extremist" etc.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: June 05 2009 at 14:31 |
staunchally wrote:
The other lyrics are cliche. 1% rules America? I don't have much money but I can do anything I want. If I'm not happy with my lot in life, well it's my own fault.
What's wrong with the Bush Presidency? You see where this will inevitably go? If an artist holds leftist viewpoints he's being deep and thoughtful. If an artist expresses a conservative view, he will be derided as "reactionary", extremist" etc. |
Plenty of liberals are idiots. I personally do not think Gildenlow is very deep at all. His philosophical stuff is about average for a college student, but I'm glad he's tackling the subjects he does rather than the same old same old. Tate was not even trying to be deep (I hope). But their criticism of the capitalist machine is certainly nice in an age where there's not nearly enough political commentary in music.
I run in liberal circles but usually I'm considered the most conservative of the bunch. You'd probably think I was the biggest pinko you'd met lately. If you think you're completely free, I hope your eyes open. At the same time, it's good to be reminded to appreciate what we have. For in the US, it is good for many. It would be nice if was good for more, and if the differences between rich and poor could be closed. In fact, I personally think it is our moral obligation to try to make that happen.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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staunchally
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 17 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 38
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Posted: June 05 2009 at 14:44 |
Negoba wrote:
staunchally wrote:
The other lyrics are cliche. 1% rules America? I don't have much money but I can do anything I want. If I'm not happy with my lot in life, well it's my own fault.
What's wrong with the Bush Presidency? You see where this will inevitably go? If an artist holds leftist viewpoints he's being deep and thoughtful. If an artist expresses a conservative view, he will be derided as "reactionary", extremist" etc. |
Plenty of liberals are idiots. I personally do not think Gildenlow is very deep at all. His philosophical stuff is about average for a college student, but I'm glad he's tackling the subjects he does rather than the same old same old. Tate was not even trying to be deep (I hope). But their criticism of the capitalist machine is certainly nice in an age where there's not nearly enough political commentary in music.
I run in liberal circles but usually I'm considered the most conservative of the bunch. You'd probably think I was the biggest pinko you'd met lately. If you think you're completely free, I hope your eyes open. At the same time, it's good to be reminded to appreciate what we have. For in the US, it is good for many. It would be nice if was good for more, and if the differences between rich and poor could be closed. In fact, I personally think it is our moral obligation to try to make that happen.
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Well I'm sure we could be here all day  but "criticism of the capitalist machine" Why should it be criticized? How wealthy is Geoff Tate?
"There's not nearly enough political commentary in music" GOOD!
"Differences between rich and poor could be closed" Why and how? A violent socialist revolution?
Oh, I don't think you're the biggest pinko you should meet some of the people I work with!
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: June 05 2009 at 15:00 |
"Differences between rich and poor could be closed" Why and how? A violent socialist revolution?
Why? Because in America still, how rich you are determines whether you get the minimal medical care and education that virtually all other 1st world nations take for granted.
How? First, by admitting that all countries are governed by a combination of socialist, capitalist, and autocratic principles. Then use some darned common sense to make policies that serve the greatest number of people to the greatest degree allowed by our resources. A non-violent rational revolution of ideas. I'm still naive enough to think that the American populace is not too stupid for this. I fear I am wrong.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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steve j
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 30 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 164
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Posted: June 05 2009 at 15:10 |
I have always enjoyed Peart's lyrics. I love his metaphors and lyrics, he brings the songs alive. However, due to personal circumstances I find some of his lyrics down right insulting. But that's the point, lyrics should be challenging, be firm in your own mind, and the music carries through.
I like Dream Theater's lyrics also, I find the comment made about about teenage boys above quite rediculous, and sounds like someone's been listening to others. Some of their stuff is quite thought provoking which is the way it ought to be.
Lyrics in prog are important , some of the bands mentioned above could provide some spectacular listenings. Keep posting
Please don't start me on fish!!! Love 'im
Steve J
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: June 05 2009 at 15:11 |
I don't care about what the lyrics say, as long as the music is good. Of course there are exceptions to that - meaning artists whose lyrics strike a chord within me (regardless of whether their lyrics are inherently good or bad) - but, by and large, I'm in it mainly because of the music. Ah, Staunchally, if you want to meet a real pinko, here I am... Very frankly speaking, as a European recently moved to the US; the stance of some of the people here frightens the hell out of me. I call it the 'God complex' - believing you can achieve just about everything you want in life, and that if something bad happens, it's your fault. Even if I agree with some of it, I draw the line at people saying things like, if you get sick it's your fault. I've seen people sicken and die through no fault of their own, and reading things like that makes me see red. *gets off soapbox* 
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staunchally
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 17 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 38
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Posted: June 05 2009 at 15:46 |
Negoba wrote:
"Differences between rich and poor could be closed" Why and how? A violent socialist revolution?
Why? Because in America still, how rich you are determines whether you get the minimal medical care and education that virtually all other 1st world nations take for granted.
How? First, by admitting that all countries are governed by a combination of socialist, capitalist, and autocratic principles. Then use some darned common sense to make policies that serve the greatest number of people to the greatest degree allowed by our resources. A non-violent rational revolution of ideas. I'm still naive enough to think that the American populace is not too stupid for this. I fear I am wrong. |
I'm not rich and I have great medical care. Education is free to all.
How? I like your first sentence but there is no "our" resources. You make some good points but the American populace is not too stupid for maybe seeing it another way. I actually do have to go now. Talk to you soon. 
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inrainbows
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 20 2008
Location: on a rainbow
Status: Offline
Points: 489
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Posted: June 05 2009 at 15:52 |
Raff wrote:
I don't care about what the lyrics say, as long as the music is good. Of course there are exceptions to that - meaning artists whose lyrics strike a chord within me (regardless of whether their lyrics are inherently good or bad) - but, by and large, I'm in it mainly because of the music.
Ah, Staunchally, if you want to meet a real pinko, here I am... Very frankly speaking, as a European recently moved to the US; the stance of some of the people here frightens the hell out of me. I call it the 'God complex' - believing you can achieve just about everything you want in life, and that if something bad happens, it's your fault. Even if I agree with some of it, I draw the line at people saying things like, if you get sick it's your fault. I've seen people sicken and die through no fault of their own, and reading things like that makes me see red.
*gets off soapbox*
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Same here.! For example , I'm not familiar to German language, but I love a thousand records of German artists, same for Japanese, or Brazilian, or Norwegian language etc., so the lyrics are almost useless for me, but I still love the music 
Edited by inrainbows - June 05 2009 at 15:54
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17854
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Posted: June 10 2009 at 12:59 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
...
Ergo, I agree with the original poster and would add that the vast majority of prog lyrics are the cringeworthy bad poetry of charlatans like Fish, Jim Morrison, Peter Sinfield, Jon Anderson, Greg Lake et al
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Goodness ... good thing you're not a publisher ...
Jim Morrison is by far one of the better writers and poets ... unffortunately, it is not the kind of rhyme and easy stuff you would understand, I would imagine ...
For the record, Jim was a film major and his lyrics are a mix of surrealism and everything else ... and they have a lot more in common with the arts and film, than they do with a lot of the things that are said here that are off base and basically dis-respectfull of the arts and forms in general. Things like "The Soft Parade" are to rock music what the Luis Bunuel/Salvador Dali L'Age D'Or is to film which was done 75 years ago ...
Unffortunately, few people here are willing, in retrospect, to even see where someone is comeing from and will out right say something is bad ...
Fish is more of an actor than he is a lyricist ... and a lot of the things he uses are actually written by a lot of local writers and poets ...
Jon Anderson is harder to pin down, but while I like things like Topographic Oceans, which comes off as a symphony to my ears, some folks don't like the lyrics ... well, that's like saying that you don't like operas because the librettos suck ... and sometimes they do ... goodness, and someone thinks that's good? But we dismiss it because Turandot and Tosca and this and that are wonderful to listen to ... no harm and no fowl ... there ...
I mean really, so you gonna tell me next that Shakespeare is always great? No, he is not ... and there is a lot of filler in there too!
Greg Lake ... I agree, mostly because his 2 solo albums were really sad ... and bad. But what made him in ELP was not the lyrics ... it was the accent on the words with the music that made it really powerful and often made the words bigger and more important than they really were ... but we remember Epitath and he sang that ... so you have to admit that there is some magic to the voice and music combination ...
As for the others that you consider writers, I would agree most heartedly that Hammill is special ... although I do not consider Bowie that great ... but he is a very good actor (including his films) and is very well trained and taught by some of the best acting schools and teachers of this century, to the point where he can make something sound better and say it better ... as such, a lot of his lyrics will sound better than they really are ... but don't forget that he is a part of that circle of Burroughs family ... he likes to take all the lyrics and thrown the words up in the air and just sing them as they come down ... regardless of sequence, and this often makes something appear to be better ... and it may not be. But acting through it is a very tough exercise that most actors are not capable of doing ...
Just remember that a lot of "prog" is the young folks that will make it a literature of tomorrow ... and these folks are important to yours and mine growth ... without their understanding of things and us relating to their medium, a lot of arts would be utterly meaningless ... you might as well spend your life gloryfying the hollywood blockbusters and intelectualize nothing-ness instead ... actually you would be gloryfying commerciality and advertising ... but that's another story.
Thx
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17854
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Posted: June 10 2009 at 13:12 |
Raff wrote:
I don't care about what the lyrics say, as long as the music is good. Of course there are exceptions to that - meaning artists whose lyrics strike a chord within me (regardless of whether their lyrics are inherently good or bad) - but, by and large, I'm in it mainly because of the music.
Ah, Staunchally, if you want to meet a real pinko, here I am... Very frankly speaking, as a European recently moved to the US; the stance of some of the people here frightens the hell out of me. I call it the 'God complex' - believing you can achieve just about everything you want in life, and that if something bad happens, it's your fault. Even if I agree with some of it, I draw the line at people saying things like, if you get sick it's your fault. I've seen people sicken and die through no fault of their own, and reading things like that makes me see red.
*gets off soapbox*
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Thank you ...
I tend to say the same thing differently and from an European point of view and some people don't get it ... check out the post sequence about the Cold War ... it falls into this area a lot.
Also, this country is insulated ... it has oceans on each side ... and when they turn onthe radio, they hear the same thing. They turn on the tv, and see the same things. They turn on to go to the movies and can only enjoy stuff that is gloryfied by the news media that owns it and everyone thinks its great ...
And when someone says otherwise ... some get offended.
Reminds me of a Nobel Prize winner that said something like ... "the country that has the most freedoms uses them the least." ... and I would like to add that in America a lot of the arts are meaningless ... utterly trashed in newspapers and places like this ... simply because the "USA Today would not know the difference between ballett and rap.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 36572
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Posted: June 10 2009 at 13:24 |
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Chris Cutler, Fred Frith, Robert Wyatt....
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Diaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 15 2007
Location: Hungary
Status: Offline
Points: 774
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Posted: June 10 2009 at 13:33 |
staunchally wrote:
topofsm wrote:
Like you said, definetely Pink Floyd and Tool.
Also:
Frank Zappa
Rush
Dream Theater
When the latter two aren't giving narratives or singing about their respective drummers' lifestyles, they actually make some intelligent points, Rush being more societal, DT being more about social acceptance.
Frank Zappa had a great use of parody in a lot of his albums. Parody, especially Zappa's, can carry loads of meaning. |
Zappa had nothing to say. Unless one regards scatology as worthwhile.
DT are pseudointellectuals. Their lyrics and music are designed to appeal to teenage boys. They know their audience |
Yeah, most teenage boys are highly interested in stem cell research and the misrepresentation of the name of God.
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yeah
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: June 10 2009 at 13:36 |
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Not a big fan of musicians when they feel they need to use their music to say something. I love Zappa but I can't listen to Broadway the Hard Way because he sacrificed his lyrical creativity to instead bludgeon you with an musical opinion column. Roger Waters solo work is just awful but it's not entirely because of his lyrics. Part of the Union by the Strawbs kills me because it's such a catchy tune but man do i hate unions.
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 Time always wins.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: June 10 2009 at 13:37 |
Diaby wrote:
staunchally wrote:
topofsm wrote:
Like you said, definetely Pink Floyd and Tool.
Also:
Frank Zappa
Rush
Dream Theater
When the latter two aren't giving narratives or singing about their respective drummers' lifestyles, they actually make some intelligent points, Rush being more societal, DT being more about social acceptance.
Frank Zappa had a great use of parody in a lot of his albums. Parody, especially Zappa's, can carry loads of meaning. |
Zappa had nothing to say. Unless one regards scatology as worthwhile.
DT are pseudointellectuals. Their lyrics and music are designed to appeal to teenage boys. They know their audience |
Yeah, most teenage boys are highly interested in stem cell research and the misrepresentation of the name of God. |
OK, the subject matter of some of DT's songs may be esoteric or serious, but I was pretty turned off by how amateur The Great Debate is. I think it's clearly their worst attempt at conveying a message. The lyrics are straight horrible.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: June 10 2009 at 13:44 |
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Personal/Relationships:
Fish
Porcupine Tree/Steve Wilson (some might say it's in a childish way, though)
Rush
Van der Graaf Generator/Peter Hammill
Societal:
Frank Zappa
Queensryche
Rush
Edited by stonebeard - June 10 2009 at 13:44
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: June 10 2009 at 13:59 |
manofmystery wrote:
I love Zappa but I can't listen to Broadway the Hard Way because he sacrificed his lyrical creativity to instead bludgeon you with an musical opinion column. |
Can't agree with you on that. Lyrical creativity and political opinions in lyrics are not mutually exclusive. It was primarily a political statement on US '80's politics and a brilliant one that. But I can see those leaning to the right might not like what he had to say.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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