The Christian Thread

p0mt3 wrote: StyLaZyn wrote: p0mt3 wrote: StyLaZyn wrote: p0mt3 wrote: stonebeard wrote: p0mt3 wrote: stonebeard wrote: Epignosis wrote: StyLaZyn wrote: Epignosis wrote: I don't believe he would.  If he did, I suppose he could light the bushes in front of my home on fire and speak to me that way. I'm trying to make a point. If the Bible\God\Jesus is OK with you killing someone, it should also be OK to provide information on how to do it.  Does this make sense?  <font size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Yes.  I agree with you.  The Bible is full of places in which God orders the killing of certain people (Joshua chapter six is a huge example I'm surprised no critics of Christianity have jumped on yet). I'm game for that. I don't know specific verses, but the Old Testament is a pretty horrible piece of literature if there ever was one. Genocide, senseless killing of animals, and an overall unreasonably vicious God.The Gospels are entirely more agreeable, though civilized thought had basically covered all of its good ideas by that time. As far as I know, God has never said that animals and man are equal. That's a concept of mankind itself dreamt up. Oh I wouldn't have expected him to. Only in the past 50 or even 25 years have we begun to understand that animals can exhibit incredible intelligence, culture, and so on. In 50 years, I suggest by most relevant theories of morality, it will be morally unethical to eat most animals simply because the only real reason we don't kill people--respect for their intelligence--would no longer not be applicable to animals. God could have revealed the fact of animal intelligence to people back then, but instead decided to indulge in speciesism. I'm sorry, but if anyone believes animals deserve the same rights as humans, they're nuts.I don't care how intelligent certain animals are; the reason we don't kill human beings is because they are of our own species. Animals kill and eat other animals lower on the food chain than they are, and have even killed their own kind senslessly just like we have. This pattern simply continues with us. If you honestly can't see that, then there's no talking to you anyway. That's right. The only life we should respect is human life. Let me buy a hunting rifle and I'll meet up with you in the field. Venison. Yum. I never said we shouldn't respect the lives of other creatures. I was simply pointing out the fact animals could care less about the lives THEY take, so why is it so horrible of people to eat a steak? I've never understood this argument of how it's evil to eat animals, when animals won't think twice about eating a lower member of the food chain themselves. The fact that you clearly do nothing but stick words in people's mouths and take others' post out of context in order to prove your point makes me wonder why I even bother debating with you. Well you could have fooled me with your calling people nuts.  You make a good point, here. I am sorry, I shouldn't have made that statement. It was rather rash. Forgive me.

You should be forgiven in a Christian Thread except for the quote pyramids.


Edited by Slartibartfast - June 03 2009 at 16:10

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p0mt3 wrote: You are basing your point on the assumption than animals are in fact on the same level as we are; an opinion I already addressed as being debatable.

I do not think animals and people are on the exact same level, but I do not think it's as stratified as the Bible indicates, at least. Sad as is may be, we're the product of evolution as much as any other animal is, and it's just that we've been dealt the intelligence cards rather than the speed, flight, or any number of evolutionary traits, to put it metaphorically. So, we are the same in many respects, but have much higher intelligence than most animals, as well as certain other mostly unique traits. What I think we can do with our intelligence is recognize the pain in animals that other animals cannot themselves see, as well as see the trend of evolution, which I think can help break down the long-running trend of separating us from other animals.

p0mt3 wrote: No, I do NOT believe God gave humans domain over EVERYTHING (he gave lucifer rule over the current earth, for instance) but he did give us authority over animals.

Forgive me for not knowing the ins and outs of the Bible. I did not mean everything literally, but only concerning animals, because I'm not interested in discussing anything else now.

p0mt3 wrote: To suggest that I assume I can have free reign over everything simply because I take a different stand on one single issue (animal rights) is absurd, with all due respect.

I was not implying that at all.

p0mt3 wrote: So you're saying the reason why we don't kill our own kind is because we respect the intelligence of our fellow man, then you turn around and say that animals don't have as much intelligence as humans in your attempt to explain away their lack of regard for other creatures they kill. By that logic, we in fact shouldn't respect animals either, because their intelligence does not mirror our own. I must have missed the point you were trying to make.

Intelligence should factor in accordingly with unnecessary suffering when addressing animal cruelty, experimentation, and eating of animals. Culture, intelligence, and language should all be factored in, and should be treated respectfully, with more respect going to animals who show more advanced degrees of them. However, in all thing with nervous systems, culture, intelligence, and language do not have to come into the equation when animals can experience pain (and even suffering--which requires fear of future pain, beyond the mere instantaneous pain). It would bother me if someone disregards the fact of animal pain by attributing it to a divine mandate.

p0mt3 wrote: Ultimately, we will never agree on this, so why debate it? I can respect your viewpoint without agreeing with it, after all.

Well, I try because I think minimizing the fact of animal pain and not being speciesist without careful consideration of the options are worthy causes to think about. Equally so, I'm against unreasonable Biblical mandates which I think people tend to clutch to despite mounting evidence that we should act contrary to them.

^ There's a wikipedia page on it, and animal ethics is a very real and interesting field of philosophy.

I may not expect you to be moved by a mere word, but if you would rather believe that God lets you do whatever you want to aminals (that can feel pain just as much as you can) rather than even entertain the possibility that what you're doing is wrong, then I'm very sad for you.

Yes but we're animals too.  Does that mean we should be eaten by other humans for nourishment? 

Yes, I am being pedantic.

Also, Chimpanzees could quite effectively play Halo (they may not know what they're doing but they could use a controller), I should think.  They're our closest specie and they can do a lot of wonderful things.

Besides, you've completely missed Stonie's point.  Of course he discriminates against animals in those particular situations (well, most of them).

By the way, I'm not a vegetarian and do eat meat.  I also believe in the food chain.  However, that does not warrant unnecessary cruelty to animals, especially when it comes to not eating them.

Animal testing is wrong as well.  Yes, I realise many cures for different illnesses and diseases have been found this way but it's still not ethical.


Edited by James - June 04 2009 at 06:25

James wrote: Yes but we're animals too.  Does that mean we should be eaten by other humans for nourishment?  Yes, I am being pedantic. Also, Chimpanzees could quite effectively play Halo (they may not know what they're doing but they could use a controller), I should think.  They're our closest specie and they can do a lot of wonderful things. Besides, you've completely missed Stonie's point.  Of course he discriminates against animals in those particular situations (well, most of them). By the way, I'm not a vegetarian and do eat meat.  I also believe in the food chain.  However, that does not warrant unnecessary cruelty to animals, especially when it comes to not eating them. Animal testing is wrong as well.  Yes, I realise many cures for different illnesses and diseases have been found this way but it's still not ethical.

No one here was advocating unnecessary cruelty to animals, so I don't realize why this is even an issue to be brought up in this thread.

Also, funny you should mention animal testing- from what I've noticed, several of the same people who believe animal testing is immoral have no qualms about human embryonic stem cell research (again, not to spark a debate, just an ironic observation).

Thought I'd just quote this from page 1:

Epignosis on page 1 wrote: I wanted to start a thread for Christians to discuss the Bible, their faith, and their struggles. This should be a place where we can pray for one another and encourage one another with scripture and testimony.

Another couple of pathetic posts deleted.

Whilst this is not a thread I visit or contribute to myself, I'd ask that members respect the wishes of those who do & keep prurient posts to themselves.

Many thanks,

Jim Garten

StyLaZyn wrote: Jim Garten wrote: Thought I'd just quote this from page 1: Epignosis on page 1 wrote: I wanted to start a thread for Christians to discuss the Bible, their faith, and their struggles. This should be a place where we can pray for one another and encourage one another with scripture and testimony. Another couple of pathetic posts deleted. Whilst this is not a thread I visit or contribute to myself, I'd ask that members respect the wishes of those who do & keep prurient posts to themselves. Many thanks, Jim Garten Time to create a different thread and let this become what It was meant to be.

Well, that's why I mentioned yesterday that I was happy to see we could have a discussion without things getting out of hand.  Our talk yesterday enabled me to study some things I had not in quite some time, so I really appreciate that.  You fellows keep a mind sharp!

And I don't mind answering questions about my faith or what the Bible says, or discussing certain points with nonbelievers- my main concern is that this thread doesn't turn into a pushing and shoving contest (which I'm sorry to say many threads based on religion and politics turn into).

And thank you, Jim, for the deletion of one particular post.  I was just going to ignore it.

Epignosis wrote:  . . . Also, funny you should mention animal testing- from what I've noticed, several of the same people who believe animal testing is immoral have no qualms about human embryonic stem cell research (again, not to spark a debate, just an ironic observation).

Epignosis wrote: Also, funny you should mention animal testing- from what I've noticed, several of the same people who believe animal testing is immoral have no qualms about human embryonic stem cell research (again, not to spark a debate, just an ironic observation).

Well, for one thing if you don't have a nervous system, you can't feel pain, which is probably 75% of my argument. But you have to weigh the potential of any unborn life versus the outcomes for people actually living now. Similarly with abortion, however stem cells can come from other places than embryos.

Sad to this thread so far down, I shall revive it!