The Christian Thread

Epignosis wrote: TGM: Orb wrote: Theory says, it's the human's choice, not God's. The Bible clearly says otherwise.

Mm... not too sure about that. Yes, God ultimately makes the 'rules', but the choice of whether to comply with them surely rests with humanity... God can't be held responsible for our own failures, I think. Otherwise, the whole 'free will' thing would just be so many words. My understanding of it has been that the life of the christian is rather choosing to communicate with God and accepting his universal offer of redemption, rather than of being specifically 'chosen' by him, per se.

Maybe you have another take on it?

Deathrabbit wrote: Agreed. I know there are some passages that seem to support predestination. But then some seem to say rright the opposite. This is one of the reasons I believe the Bible is not really the unadulterated word of God. Rather, its just a book with some good adviice in parts of it, as well as the recountings of Jesus life. The gospels are really the main thing I take away from it.

I wouldn't really say that, so much, and I think that it can be the word of God in a sense that implies God has been crucial in its shaping and understanding even if He didn't literally dictate it. I personally don't think there's one right or good interpretation - your reading and what you get from it depends on the context of your life more than it does on the plain way that it would have been interpreted by an ancient audience - that said, attempting to understand that bit is useful in getting some more from the basic content of it, but I think that content goes a lot deeper than just what is written.

I apologize for not being very verbose; I'm tired, and I'm typing on a tiny netbook keyboard. I'll be better this weekend I promise. ;)

Straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ:

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.  (John 6:44)

That Greek word for "draws" is helko, literally meaning "to drag."

From the pen of Paul:

"In whom (Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." (Ephesians 1:11, bold mine).

God declared to Moses after the Exodus from Egypt:

And he (God) said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. (Exodus 33:19, bold mine)

These are but three verses (taken in context) that declare the complete sovereignty of God over salvation.

Epignosis wrote: Deathrabbit wrote: I agree that some parts are vey, well, heavenly, but others just seem like the apostles shooting their mouth off. Here's a real winner by Paul for instance: http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-6.htm That's terribly ethnocentric of you.  What Paul was describing isn't even a Christian value.  It's largely a cultural one.  I challenge you to learn what head coverings meant in the ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern world.

The problem is that God is not Mediterranean nor Middle Eastern. Or human for that matter. Therefore, if the Bible was the complete and infallible word of God, verses like this wouldn't exist. This is instead just Paul interjecting his own opinion and not surprisingly for the early 1st century, it's very misogynist. There are other examples; don't think I just found one verse in the Bible that doesn't add up and therefore decided to abandon the whole thing. In fact, I have not abandoned it, rather I have just learned to take the good and leave the bad.

So on to the sticky topic of predestination.  Like I said there a myriad verses that seem to both for and against predestination. I could spam you with a million of them, but then you could just spam me right back with a million that say the opposite. I think part of it's an interpretation problem. So I guess it just comes down to what you believe. Personally, I think that predestination makes God out to be a cosmic jackass who gives life to sentient entities just so he can cast them into Hell. Also, predestination makes any attempt in fulfilling the Great Commission just a parting middle finger from the evangelist to the sinner he's trying to convert.

Basically my view is http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/128/

Epignosis wrote: Straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ: No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.  (John 6:44) That Greek word for "draws" is helko, literally meaning "to drag." From the pen of Paul: "In whom (Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." (Ephesians 1:11, bold mine). God declared to Moses after the Exodus from Egypt: And he (God) said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. (Exodus 33:19, bold mine) These are but three verses (taken in context) that declare the complete sovereignty of God over salvation.

That doesn't actually contradict my point so much. My understanding of the idea was that grace and forgiveness/redemption were a universally open offer from God, and though God had made that offer, the choice to accept it was that of the human. So, essentially, that sovereignty of God is sovereignty which he has devolved.

That's my take, at least.

I think this is pretty reasonable (and thanks for the link, Deathrabbit)

Edit: and regardless, I couldn't possibly accept predestination as an absolute truth. My life would be completely and utterly meaningless without personal choice, and complete predestination precludes that. I'd rather be wrong and think I have meaning than be right and yet so devoid of purpose.


Edited by TGM: Orb - May 15 2009 at 13:31

Epignosis wrote: Diaby wrote: Epignosis wrote: Diaby wrote: Thank you for your kind posts. He's better this day than he was tomorrow – that's a hopeful improvement.   Robert: I hope once I will be like you, somebody who has always fully trust in God. I wish He sends you solutions for those hardships you're going through. Forget people who say faith is "blind belief."  I only have faith because God has helped me in the worst of circumstances. Just know Jesus will care for you also, friend.  I will also be praying for you grandfather, and for you as well.   Lots of thanks, my friend.   My grandfather passed away on Monday. I'm sad but also grateful to God because He didn't let him suffer too much. He is in a better place now I know. I'll be at church tonight (preaching), and will mention you and your family for prayer if that's all right. You have my sincere condolences, friend.

^^^Consider it done! Let us know what happens.

I'm feeling a bit hypocritical. Everyone who comes done hard on, say, Neal Morse due to his overtly Christian lyrics always made me raise an eyebrow. I always said, "Just get past the lyrics if it bothers you."

I'm having a tough time with a track from the new Martin Orford entitled "Out In The Darkness". I spun it for the second time today and find the lyrics to be so offensive (especially referring to the Bible as 'a silly book'). For the most part, I like the album, but that song makes my blood boil and am probably going to skip over it in the future. As a song based solely on melody, structure, etc., I don't care for it and find it to be weak. I could look past that long before the blatant slap in the face of Christianity that comes from the lyrics, however. If it was an album full of that, I'd probably have to sell it on Amazon or ebay.

I doubt if I'll ever use the 'get past the lyrics' arguement in the future. I see what people on that side of the fence are talking about now.

E

birdwithteeth11 wrote: Right now I have a friend who for all of his life has been a fervent atheist. But over the past few weeks he has been going to church with me and my family and is seriously considering becoming a Christian. I would appreciate it if you could keep him in your guys' (and gals) thoughts and prayers as he goes through an important change in his life.

p0mt3 wrote: Damnit, I missed this! That's what happens when you get too busyt to frequent the same sites all the time. Anyway . . . I recently aquired an Apologetics Bible, which has really begun to open up my eyes to plenty of things I didn't even know existed before. I find it very inspiring and insightful.