Dire Straits: Prog-Related? YES.

Sean Trane wrote: Dire Straits' only claim for here is Love Over Gold. >>> superb album.  And the only really prog track in thayt album is Private InvestigationS.

^ .....

Romeo & Juliet , along with Tunnel of Love are just updated Electric Dylan. I keep listening to these songs, the whole album actually, and I can't for the life of me see what is prog about them. 

I have a problem with this thread.  Everybody has their own interpretation of what prog is.  I have heard Private Investigations described as "pop".  I will be hearing next that Court of the Crimson King is MOR. IMHO both Private Investigations and Telegraph Road are both prog related, they do not follow the normal verse / chorus / verse / chorus of a pop song.  Should they be added to the archives? - the answer is no, but then again there are lots of bands on ear that are classified as prog related when they do in fact write the normal verse / chorus / verse / chorus of a pop song. 

Catchy is about the 50th word that comes to my mind when thinking about Private Investigations. Is there any possibility that you could be confusing it with Industrial Disease? That and perhaps It Never Rains are in my opinion the songs that make an attempt at catchiness on Love Over Gold.

I've listened to Love Over Gold to give an opinion about and for me, the album is clearly not prog. Telegraph Road has some credentials, but the other songs, including Private Investigations are barely prog-related, IMO. Of course, we can take other prog-related songs from other albums, like Brothers In Arms, but in the end we will come to a situation similar to lots of artists in the seventies, who had very few really prog-oriented songs and some bunch of prog-related among tons of non-prog songs.

Agree Raff, when proposing 100% Prog bands, nobody cares, just the usual suspectts, lbut 172 replies for a mainly Blues, Country, Rock and Pop band is way over the top IMHO.

NotAProghead wrote: No wonder, those 100% Prog bands are hardly as famous as Dire Straits.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 28 2009 at 11:30

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: NotAProghead wrote: No wonder, those 100% Prog bands are hardly as famous as Dire Straits.    Exactly my pointy, this a Progressive Rock site NotaProghead, we know rPog is not remotely famous, but the mission of the site is to promote famous an obscure Prog bands, not to boost already famous Pop & Rock bands.   If we don't do it....Why are we here in:     I believe I made a striongest case for Bonzo Dog Doh Da Band, at least they are in several Prog sites, but they were rejected, so I closed my mouth, the same when a band I don't agree is accepted, I talk when there is a chance but when it's obvious they are comming in, I support the site.   But even when is obvious Dire Strait will hardly be accepted and has been repeatedly rejected, people insist.   Iván

Just a few quick notes
1) can we please put to rest the notion that prog is not popular. The so called golden age icons of the 70s sold tons of records, and toured to big crowds that compared very well  to everyone else after Zep & the Stones and the mega million sellers like Fleetwood Mac. Yes Virginia, there was an actual healthy commercial market for prog bands.
And the last two decades have certainly not been dry periods for prog either. Of course, some here suffer a persecution complex that insists on only using multi-platinum acts as measuring sticks. Please, so what if Creed sold 10 million copies per album. That has always been the nature of Pop music. Groups with hit singles sometimes sell more than  the rest of the music groups that have lengthy careers.
Let's see - Marillion, IQ, Pendragon have managed to exists since the early 80s to today.
King Crimson had a forty plus year career. Rush , Tull, Yes, are still going concerns that have no problems putting albums and touring after 30 - 40 years in the business. Even prog era Genesis still has enormous attraction to tour promoters for the financial rewards that could be reaped from even a short tour. No matter how it compares to "commerical era" Genesis. Cult bands like Gentle Giant managed to find enough of a market to re-issue their complete catalog this decade. The Strawbs still tour regularly under an acoustic version AND an electric one too! Dream Theater, Queensryche, are still doing very well, thank you. The prog metal scene, including the extreme and post sections are very vibrant. Tool ? Mars Volta ? Devin Townsend ?
So please, the notion of prog's unpopularity is based on nothing more than self pity. Prog has been around since the late 60s, and continues to thrive. You may have heard of some of the fan sites that abound on the net like this one
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2) PA's goal is not to promote obscure or unknown bands. It is  "PROG ARCHIVES intends to be the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource." PA does not and never has made a group's popularity a determining factor in including or refusing them admission to our database. Though we all know that popular bands too often face mindless prejudices from some here because they enjoyed commercial success, which unfortunately for us,  means that some famous  groups that are equally as deserving as obscure bands already here ,  are left to the side as the fight will be too acrimonious. ALL bands should be considered on their merits. AND ALL HERE should know by now that those merits are measured subjectively.

3) Rush are a rock band. A famous one at that. Are we to institute a policy where we no longer review their albums, discuss them in threads, or even use their music as a comparison ? So that we don't boost their already high level of fame ? Oh wait, Crimson, Yes, Tull, Genesis, Dream Theater, ELO, Supertramp, Pink Floyd, Rush, Tool, Peter Gabriel, and many others surely need no further help in achieving name recognition. Strike them from the record Monsieur le Court Clerk !
4) the very nature of being a fan, which is a shortened form of the word fanatic, is that some fans will fight to a very allegorical death for their idols. Now, let's flip this one over - don't the dissenters do the same ?
Hendrix anyone ?
And the greater the assumed knowledge of a musical act's music, the greater the fight. No matter if either side's opinion is based only on knowing (not knowing of or reading about, actually having listened to it enough to form an informed opinion) a small percentage or ratio of the candidate's actual body of work !

5) I don't believe that Dire Straits belong here. Their album Love Over Gold is an excellent example of why having an album only section would be interesting. But PA's current position, which I agree with, is that this idea would cause more grief that would overwhelm whatever benefits it could bring to your average prog treasure hunter. And we have seen some of their supporters change their minds. But frankly, I do not hesitate to admit that those who keep the battle on for admission are able to make a decent case for them. Not one that I see as sufficient, but a good one none the less. You're a lawyer Ivan, representing a case (here the arguement is that Dire Straits is worthy) is not based on being able to win after giving your opening statement. The case is closed only once the Judge determines it is, after an appropriate trial.
And so far, despite the PA admin's opinion that Dire Straits does not merit inclusion, it has allowed the debate (the trial if you will) to continue. 

Why is that acceptable ? Again Hendrix anyone ?

PA does not refuse outright any new arguement for previously refused groups. PA does however refuse to go over the same old ground over & over again. To the point where such threads will have links posted to related threads, and at a certain point, the "new" thread is closed. If I remember correctly, there has been one or two groups' fans that have enjoyed this treatment a few times.
But if someone comes back with new insight, with a fresh approach as to why a musical act has been unjustly denied admission, PA comes out ahead by allowing the possibility of appeal.
Again, emphasis on NEW, not just same old same old.

6) I would not be surprised if the Bonzo Dog band eventually get in. I refer to the above comment. I believe the proof of prognitude has yet to be presented, but likely will be put into the necessary words some day.
Hell, and that is what some discussion forums might become ... I think that groups like Toto, Scorpions, Angel, and a few other "name" bands may (CAPITAL LETTERS - MAY) make it in some time , too. If & when , and only if & when a sufficient case is made that PA feels comfortable supporting and defending. Please re-read - IF ... AND ... WHEN. No sure lock there, just a possibility.

7) and as for supporting the site once a decision is made ... we all know some claim so, and offer it along with a re-iteration of their opposition to the final decision. This is fine. As long as we allow the other side the same opportunity.

8) Those stating that they no longer care, should no longer post to those threads. Those that do .... well, it's kinda understandable that they would, eh.


Soooooo .... let's keep the debate about the group and the music . There is no need to distort PA's goal. No need to claim objective truth, nor some illusory position as unquestionable arbiter of all that is prog.
If there was someone who could do that, the process would be simple - present your case to Debrewguy, get your answer, then move on.
Alas, the morass of democracy that we encourage here allows for heated disagreement. and extended meandering posts.

Sooooo my bladder is about to bust, so I must go, before i go all over my chair and in my pants ...

akin wrote: Raff wrote: I have to wonder about one thing... There are suggestions in this section that have received ZERO answers, and will soon fall through the cracks. Yet, people continue to beat this (at least apparently) dead horse. Nine pages to discuss a GREAT band (I have been a fan of theirs since the beginning of their career), but one only very, very marginally related to prog (unlike many other bands already included in PR). I am one of the most open-minded members here, and have never raised a stink over ANY additions - but this one has 'huge can of worms' written all over it. Well, I myself have already suggested many prog bands and proto-prog undeniable bands, here, on collabs section or even on the teams forums and only once in 6 years my suggestion was taken seriously, all others died with 0 or few replies of uninterested people, even when I provided links for samples of their music just because all of them were not well-known. People was more interested in discussing non-prog acts like The Police, or Metallica, Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden that were forced into the site by insistence. Other additions that I have supported died in the hands of teams, with no decision made, they just died. Being so, and including the fact that I am one of the oldest collabs in the site, I think I have the right to voice my opinion wherever I want. After all, the same collabs that remind me of the other suggestions were the ones who ignored my suggestions and let them fall through the cracks while they participated in some of the non-prog 'can of worms' discussions.

I hope you are not referring to me. If you are, please address me directly, not by vague suggestions. OK?