Amp/Guitar modeling and related discussion thread

^Not entirely sure what you mean.
Ableton Live Suite 8 is telling me I'm getting 10.9ms with the POD X3 Live ASIO setting, so are you saying that since I'm using the X3 Live as my soundcard/monitoring anyway I should actually be achieving less latency in the real world and that Ableton is showing me a number with errors?
Sorry if that was perhaps a dumb question, but I honestly wasn't sure if I'm reading what you're saying correclty

^I used ASIO4All, yes.
And before you ask, I tried the ASIO X3 Live driver and Line 6 decided you only needed to go as low as 128 samples for the buffer size.
This would be great except for the fact latency is not going to be any lower than 10.9ms. Why Line 6 decided to cap the lower limit at 128 buffers just really just beyond me. I also can't get lower than a sampling rate of 48KHz which also doesn't help latency.
If I want lower, ASIO4All is the only driver that is going to get me there since it allows me to use a 96 KHz sampling rate and a smaller buffer size.
So if it's true that I can only get 16 bits, what I lose in bits I make up for in the sampling rate.
How that actually compares in the real world is another thing obviously.
Plenty of people are recording their X3 Live through ASIO4All because they suffered the same problem of the Line 6 ASIO driver not allowing a buffer size below 128 samples and yet some of these guys sound amazing, so I'm really not concerned as long as the latency is below 5ms which it is:)

I guess, we had a different idea of looking at it. I wasn't looking at it from the perspective of it having the line out connected to mixer approach, since I connect my X3 Live to active monitors and thus any power amp/speaker configuration I would need to use at any point in time.

Moving on now, I'm going to start trying to record with this thing now that I believe I've dialed in some decent tone.
As long as I don't run into any hassles, I'll try to post clips once my internet connection is back up to 12mbps.

Edit: Just recorded some stuff, but unfortunately clips have to wait, but I got 4.67ms of latency. I guess this means I'll be keeping the POD for a while yet:)


Edited by Petrovsk Mizinski - May 25 2009 at 07:37

Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^ technically though the X3 Live is not a preamp, but preamp, amp, cabinets and microphones (although of course you can turn off the amp/cabinet simulations). So in all fairness, when comparing sounds you should try to mike (sic) an expensive tube amp properly and compare that to what the X3 Live generates through its line out.

I think you missed the point of what I was saying, I may not have been clear enough though to be fair.
Yes, I know it's a preamp, amp *simulations* effects, cabinet, mics etc I own the bloody thing for christsake, of course I know this, but for all intents and purposes, it's a preamp in the proper sense of the term.
Just like an separate preamp needs a a power amp with a cabinet to make sound, so does a POD, hence my comparison. A POD is not an *amp* in the proper sense of the word, because you need actual amplification to even hear anything out of it.

An update, I managed to get some nice rhythm guitar sounds out of this thing after 4 days

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Petrovsk Mizinski wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: Maybe it's because I'm an IT professional, but I never had any problems figuring out gear like the POD. In fact it really seems simpler to me than having a dozen pedals and stomp boxes ... but of course each one of us should use whatever they find most intuitive themselves. And I agree that most of the gear talk is superficial and the music really comes from your fingers ... but if the sound is not pleasing that might make it difficult to really get into the right mood for playing great music. Most gear talkis superficial? So you mean, Steve Vai just wasted his time talking to Carvin about his Legacy amps to get the tonal needs he wanted, he just wasted his time talking to Ibanez about his signature guitar and asking for specific pickups to be put in there, a specific tone wood to be used? I guess I wasted my time researching and disussing with people whether I would be happy with an X3 Live and should just buy a cheap mic and record my practice amp that sounds like buzzing bees and mud. Yeah right. Come on Mike, that's ridiculous. Be realistic, people need to discuss gear to get the tone they want, otherwise you're going to end up stuck with gear you don't like. It's not superifical, it's reasonable and rational to talk and discuss it with others that know their sh*t, I said "most gear talk". What I mean is that many times people talk about their gear and you get the distinct impression that they're suffering from the "the grass is greener" syndrome. Some may have a high end tube amp and crave a modelling amp because they're tired of having just one sound. Others may have a modelling amp and crave for a real tube amp, thinking that it would push their playing to the next level. One guy might have a Morley wah pedal and dream of a Dunlop Cry-Baby because Hendrix played one. See what I mean? I know that gear is really important to you, but I know for a fact that it's really not important at all to the listener. Sure, if you have a crappy sound then most people will hear it. But only few will hear the difference between a properly set up state of the art modelling sound and a real tube amp ... or between a GT-10 and a X3. And that is the level of most gear talk, and what I would call superficial. To these people I would say that they should devote more attention to what they're playing, than to how it sounds. It's only me of course ... and I might be totally wrong. So feel free to ignore me!

I understand what you're saying and we've had this conversation before, certainly, but the fact is, in the real world, the primary reason for saving up your hard earned money on good gear isn't for the audience to hear you, but to be able to please yourself so you can say "I like the voicing of this amp/the tonality of it" or whatever else it may be about that piece of gear that is pleasing to the individual.
This is how it is for most people. I know this, because I spend time posting or lurking on many guitar forums in the gear sections. Pretty much none of the guys I've spoken to want just for the audience to hear them, but a piece of gear that is going to satisfy their ear too
And because of this, whether the audience notices or not is irrelevant to most musicians.
I've been told by a guy that has been playing for over 10 years that I jammed with that brought along his 3499 AUD Peavey XXX head, 2000 AUD cabinet and other a thousands dollars worth of pedals, that me playing through my V-Amp 2 and fairly cheap studio monitors I sounded good.
To be fair, the V-Amp 2 does sound decent, but compared to his expensive Peavey tube amp, it wasn't exactly mind blowingly amazing.
I've been told I sound good through a Marshall AVT 100 and a Randall RX-75 while using really cheap guitars with poor quality pickups.
Funny, because both amps sound like complete crap to my ears because unlike the audience I cannot get past the bad tone coming from the amp and speakers and just listen to my playing without having to think how poor the amp sounds.
Was I being I sounded good because my playing was good or because I actually had good tone?
Maybe both, but to me personally, the gear sounded like crap. The tone was thin, harsh, lifeless and dull no matter how lively my playing might have been.
It's because I constantly notice these kind of details that I need a certain level of gear.
True, a POD X3 Live is 1299 which is a lot cheaper than a tube preamp made by Mesa Boogie or a classy manufacturer like that (technically I can't compare an X3 Live to an actual amp since it's a preamp by nature), but after a few hours per day of tweaking since I got this on Friday, I'm getting better lead guitar tones than a poorly set up tube amp.
True, a well set up tube amp beats a well set up modeling unit, but a well set up modeling unti always beats a poorly set up tube amp.
So in my favor is the fact I'm a person with the kind of patience to read manuals, tweak things, research constantly on the internet. So my tone is going to beat the pants off the expensive Mesa Boogie rig that isn't set up well because the owner didn't bother to read the manual.

Petrovsk Mizinski wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: Maybe it's because I'm an IT professional, but I never had any problems figuring out gear like the POD. In fact it really seems simpler to me than having a dozen pedals and stomp boxes ... but of course each one of us should use whatever they find most intuitive themselves. And I agree that most of the gear talk is superficial and the music really comes from your fingers ... but if the sound is not pleasing that might make it difficult to really get into the right mood for playing great music. Most gear talkis superficial? So you mean, Steve Vai just wasted his time talking to Carvin about his Legacy amps to get the tonal needs he wanted, he just wasted his time talking to Ibanez about his signature guitar and asking for specific pickups to be put in there, a specific tone wood to be used? I guess I wasted my time researching and disussing with people whether I would be happy with an X3 Live and should just buy a cheap mic and record my practice amp that sounds like buzzing bees and mud. Yeah right. Come on Mike, that's ridiculous. Be realistic, people need to discuss gear to get the tone they want, otherwise you're going to end up stuck with gear you don't like. It's not superifical, it's reasonable and rational to talk and discuss it with others that know their sh*t,

I said "most gear talk". What I mean is that many times people talk about their gear and you get the distinct impression that they're suffering from the "the grass is greener" syndrome. Some may have a high end tube amp and crave a modelling amp because they're tired of having just one sound. Others may have a modelling amp and crave for a real tube amp, thinking that it would push their playing to the next level. One guy might have a Morley wah pedal and dream of a Dunlop Cry-Baby because Hendrix played one.

See what I mean? I know that gear is really important to you, but I know for a fact that it's really not important at all to the listener. Sure, if you have a crappy sound then most people will hear it. But only few will hear the difference between a properly set up state of the art modelling sound and a real tube amp ... or between a GT-10 and a X3. And that is the level of most gear talk, and what I would call superficial. To these people I would say that they should devote more attention to what they're playing, than to how it sounds.

It's only me of course ... and I might be totally wrong. So feel free to ignore me!

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Maybe it's because I'm an IT professional, but I never had any problems figuring out gear like the POD. In fact it really seems simpler to me than having a dozen pedals and stomp boxes ... but of course each one of us should use whatever they find most intuitive themselves. And I agree that most of the gear talk is superficial and the music really comes from your fingers ... but if the sound is not pleasing that might make it difficult to really get into the right mood for playing great music.

Most gear talkis superficial?
So you mean, Steve Vai just wasted his time talking to Carvin about his Legacy amps to get the tonal needs he wanted, he just wasted his time talking to Ibanez about his signature guitar and asking for specific pickups to be put in there, a specific tone wood to be used?
I guess I wasted my time researching and disussing with people whether I would be happy with an X3 Live and should just buy a cheap mic and record my practice amp that sounds like buzzing bees and mud. Yeah right.
Come on Mike, that's ridiculous. Be realistic, people need to discuss gear to get the tone they want, otherwise you're going to end up stuck with gear you don't like.
It's not superifical, it's reasonable and rational to talk and discuss it with others that know their sh*t,

I don't buy the sound comes from your fingers bullsh*t and never really did.
If it's true, just walk onto the stage with nothing and apparently the sounds of the guitar and amp are going to magically going to come out of your hands and fingers.
Bullsh*t.
Tone is the result of many many factors.
The body wood of the guitar, the materials in the bridge and type of bridge, the wood of the neck, the wood of the fretboard, how the neck is constructed, what brand of strings, what gauge of strings, what the nut is made of
and then what the frets are made of.
Then we have what amp settings you use, what amp you use in particular , what pedals you have connected, whether they are true bypass or not.
On an album it comes down to how it mixed and mastered, how many times you tracked the guitar and what mic you used etc etc.
On stage, it's about the venue size, whether the floor transmits too much bass, whether you are going direct to FOH and coming out of studio monitors, whether you are going through your amp mic'd up and sending that to FOH.
In the end, your fingers can shape things like picking dynamics, articulation, subtlety, nuance.
When you hear a great guitarist, like Guthrie Govan or David Gilmour, they have that ability to do that, but they also choose certain gear too because they have tonal needs in mind.

So debrewguy, tell me why you had a Tube Screamer modified if you apparently think you can sound great without decent gear?
f**k that man, don't spend money, just walk into a room empty handed and guitar tone magically comes from your hands and fingers
Fact is, my old practice amp sounds like a buzzy piece of sh*t no matter how much I practiced and get better as a guitarist.
I sound 1000 times better than my Line 6 POD because it has the tonal options I need.



Edited by Petrovsk Mizinski - May 24 2009 at 01:28

Maybe it's because I'm an IT professional, but I never had any problems figuring out gear like the POD. In fact it really seems simpler to me than having a dozen pedals and stomp boxes ... but of course each one of us should use whatever they find most intuitive themselves.

And I agree that most of the gear talk is superficial and the music really comes from your fingers ... but if the sound is not pleasing that might make it difficult to really get into the right mood for playing great music.

^ keep in mind though that the Beatles - at least by the time they became experimental - also had a host of technicians at their disposal ...

BTW: Configuring amp modelers is not exactly rocket science anymore ... get yourself a Line 6 TonePort if you like, and play around with POD-Farm on the computer. It's literally like using analog hardware. Sound-wise there's still much room for improvement as far as emulating tubes and speakers is concerned ... but that can't keep me from using the technology. And I've been using it from day 1 (since the original POD came out almost a decade ago).