Suggested move - Coheed & Cambria OUT of PR - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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angelmk

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Posted: February 08 2009 at 12:33

ok, guys , chill out a second, don't eat me, i've just sad what i think, it's my opinion, my taste, it does not to be taken so seriously, i understand there are CaC fans here, so keep listening it if you like , this is open tread and everybody can say his opinion.

cheers

Queen By-Tor View Drop Down

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Posted: February 08 2009 at 20:17

It wasn't really a discussion as to whether you like them or not - it was an arguement as to the validity of their music in the context of Crossover prog vs. Prog Related on a purely subjective level (aka - not just "I like them, I don't like them").

Not trying to be an ass, just trying to keep the thread on the topic instead of having it turn into a festival of people saying that they don't like them

Chris S

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Posted: February 08 2009 at 23:57

Mike as mentioned in another thread there are definite grounds to move them to Crossover. A more natural fit IMO than P-Related. We do need to assess them as a team so will wait for everyone's opinion first.

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Moatilliatta View Drop Down

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Posted: February 10 2009 at 23:18

I'm a bit late here, but here's my opinion (hopefully most of it, or all of it, is relevant):

First of all, the website need to change their name to Coheed and Cambria, as they don't use the ampersand (petty, peevish thing, I know).

Anyway, I think Coheed's older albums are their most progressive in sound and scope, though they sound the least like what we know as prog rock. The song structures and group interplay, among other things, on The Second Stage Turbine Blade and In Keeping Secrets of SIlent Earth: 3 are more unique and progressive (especially considering their sonic origins of punk & hardcore). As we move into the Good Apollo albums, we see a decline in complex structures (except the fabulous Willing Well numbers) and a more contemporary pop approach to songwriting, though their increased budget gave them more ability to layer and texturalize their stuff. Good Apollo I definitely uses the budget to its advantage, and I think it's got a lot of clever things going on underneath the catchy melodies and what not.

I think No World for Tomorrow, while sounding most like traditional prog rock, is their least progressive & lowest quality output. The songs are very simple and often ordinary, even if they are still tremendously catchy or memorable. The band had a clear identity before, and I think they're starting to lose it. There definitely was no progression/evolution from Good Apollo I to Good Apollo II, but I can look past that for two reasons: 1) The band went through some tough person stuff and line-up changes during this period 2) They are both volumes of the same title, so it makes sense that they stay along the same lines. The problem isn't quite the lack of evolution, it just sounds to me like they didn't even try most of the time. The songs didn't flow like they did before, the sound is pretty empty and I don't hear any neat layering very often, etc.

I think since I was a younger person, rooted in punky music, when I discovered them, it's easier for me to appreciate The Second Stage Turbine Blade and since many people here discovered the band after being prog rock fans for a while, they took a liking to No World for Tomorrow because it sounds closer to home. This either means that they don't find them progressive because they've only heard the miniamlly progressive No World for Tomorrow, or because they haven't properly assessed the old records. I think I may be getting off topic, so I'll sum it up:

The band definitely deserves a spot out of PR based on the merits of their first 3 records. Even if the band stays stagnant from here on, I think their contribution to progressive rock is significant enough to get them out. We also should keep in mind that their next record is going to include their new drummer, who came from The Dillinger Escape Plan. That guy can bring a lot to the table creatively and technically, and maybe there will be some newfound inspiration.

www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph

topofsm

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Posted: February 11 2009 at 23:09

As a band that many people label as prog rock, and who have obvious prog influences, I think they fully deserve a spot in the Prog Related category.

However, I really don't see them as a progressive rock band in the least. I own two of their albums, IKSOSE:3 and NWFT. The only songs that made me think 'prog' were "The Crowing" and "21:13" from the former. I suppose "On The Brink", the last song on NWFT was a bit proggy because of the unusual song structure, but the composition is very awkward, and the weird structure only serves to make it bad to listen to.

The C&C Suites, another aspect of their albums that could lead them to being called prog, could hardly be called suites. The songs don't lead into each other, they don't share themes, and since the albums are all concept albums, you can hardly say that they are linked by a lyrical story, since the entire album is like that.

And the s/t song from IKSOSE:3 an epic proggy composition? It's a standard song with 4 minutes of ideas expanded into 8 minutes.

Prog Related? Absolutely! Yes! They definetely belong there!

Any prog category like Crossover? I would say nay.

Moatilliatta View Drop Down

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Posted: February 12 2009 at 02:08

topofsm wrote:

As a band that many people label as prog rock, and who have obvious prog influences, I think they fully deserve a spot in the Prog Related category.

And the s/t song from IKSOSE:3 an epic proggy composition? It's a standard song with 4 minutes of ideas expanded into 8 minutes.

Prog Related? Absolutely! Yes! They definetely belong there!

Any prog category like Crossover? I would say nay.

Again, I will reiterate that the tunes on No World for Tomorrow are their least proggy. "On the Brink" is definitely a mess - quite a shame really - but "The End Complete" actually pulls off a more expanded structure. In any case, I'll agree that based on that album they only deserve prog related.

Now, the suites are separated because they serve as an aside to the linear storytelling of the other songs. For example, the Velorium Camper suite takes a step back to examine the character of Al the Killer and his role in the story. I definitely wish the band would take the next step and connect the whole suite musically, but hey, the songs are still pretty good so I won't complain too much.

Finally, the title track from In Keeping Secrets... is no 4 minutes of ideas expanded into 8 minutes. The key elements to any composition are repetition and contrast. With new repetitions, composers often mix things up in some way to maintain familiarity while also bringing some new ideas out. That's what is going on for much of the song. They repeat the intro, but they add melodic chant with some lead vocals and what not over it, which brings the song full circle and it ends with a bang. A lot of epics do that, though this is much shorter than the ones that may come to mind. Anyway, there are plenty of new ideas in the second half, which flow perfectly while staying away from any formula.

www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph

SilverEclipse View Drop Down

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Posted: May 08 2009 at 12:42

Well, I'm glad to see my favorite modern band got their due and have been moved to Crossover Prog, a place I think they fit in quite well.

As for the loss of progression in NWFT. This is true, they did stick to verse-chorus song structure quite a bit. But you have to think in the context of the story here. Pretty much every song was wrapping up an aspect of the story, and I think big choruses and epic guitar solos really fit into the album in this aspect. The past songs were less structured and more poetic in a way because the story was simply moving along from one "chapter" to another, sometimes within a song. With the last album, everything was coming to an end. How would you convey the end in a song format? Well, with big choruses and solos thats how! Besides, there are a couple songs on here (the two longest on the album) The End Complete and On the Brink that are among their most progressive, and pretty much every one of the rest of the songs have a prog flavor to them.

Recently they ended the Neverender tour and added prog drummer Chris Pennie, and studio keyboardist Wes Styles got some of the spotlight on the tour and will be used in the next album. Expect the prequel to firmly cement the band into the progressive category.

Listen, their first 3 albums are all very progressive and then they missed a step on the 4th, but only in terms of proggy-ness. NWFT is arguably their best album. It's tight, consistent, memorable, catchy, and rocks out hard all at the same time. Did we strip the prog title away from Yes for that turd, Tormato, which was RE-gressive and lousy? No. Just because Coheed did one album that was a little more straightforward rock (yet, still contains some of their most prog moments) does not mean we should stop acknowledging Coheed's contribution to moving rock music forward. Seriously, they got EMO kids going to prog concerts and listening to Crimson and Yes! I know because I post on their fansite.

"and if the band your in starts playing different tunes, I'll see you on the dark side of the moon"

Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down

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Posted: May 09 2009 at 00:08

Woa, I didn't even know they were moved to Crossover until just now, that's really awesome, good to see the band there Big smile

topofsm

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Posted: May 09 2009 at 01:09

Hmm, well even though I hear barely any prog in their music, I guess they are officially prog according to this site.

Apparently I must be missing something in their music, but this isn't going to be anything I'm going to worry about. Good for them.

SilverEclipse View Drop Down

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Posted: May 09 2009 at 12:19

topofsm wrote:

Hmm, well even though I hear barely any prog in their music, I guess they are officially prog according to this site.

Apparently I must be missing something in their music, but this isn't going to be anything I'm going to worry about. Good for them.

Listen to The Willing Well I-IV off the first Good Apollo album and tell me you don't hear prog.

"and if the band your in starts playing different tunes, I'll see you on the dark side of the moon"

Avantgardehead View Drop Down

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Posted: May 16 2009 at 22:56

Post-hardcore with some influences from prog, glam, and heavy metal. Since they're not primarily a prog band, I think prog-related is a good fit though I wouldn't oppose them being ejected. Star