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rushfan4 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66244
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 Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:36 |
 Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
KoS wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
When chemotherapy is as ineffective as it is now, no.
When it becomes better in the future, perhaps.
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It's one of the only options left for cancer patients. Two of my friends have had family members that have survived cancer because of chemo. Yes, it's not efficient, but doing nothing is not an option.
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Why not? 
People probably died of cancer all the time before we knew what it was, and I bet you tons of people lived much longer NOT KNOWING it was there than if they knew it was there---you'd be surprised at how much power the mind really has.
It certainly is an option, in my opinion. And forcing someone to provide that for their children is another step in the wrong direction that this country is taking.
Once the treatment actually becomes effective in not destroying the mental and physical state of a person, then we'll talk.
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I do believe you are severely overestimating the side effects of chemotherapy.
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I do believe you are severely underestimating the sheer will power of the human mind.
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Okay, Professor X. I'll go will my hemorrhoids away now.
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That's real logical. 
I never said he could CURE his own disease anywhere in there, did I?
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You're right. You didn't.
I'll go make my hemorrhoids a little better with my mind then.
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I always thought you had your head up your ass, I didn't realize that you were trying to make your hemorrhoids better.   (jk)
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Beasty Heart
Status: Offline
Points: 32181
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:36 |
KoS wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
KoS wrote:
"If the evaluation shows the cancer had advanced to a point where
chemotherapy and radiation would no longer help, the judge said, he
would not order the boy to undergo treatment."
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That's purely subjective though, and it's still on grounds of forcing someone to make a decision for their own children.
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Yes, because the decision that the parents will make, is sure to result in the death of the child. The court's decision will probably save his life.
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But who is anyone to say that? Are we going to start forcing parents to put sunscreen on their kids because if they don't it will lead to cancer or are we going to start forcing parents to give their child who has ADD pills because if they don't the child won't live to their full potential? I'm sorry, it's absolute crap.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66244
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:38 |
MovingPictures07 wrote:
KoS wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
KoS wrote:
"If the evaluation shows the cancer had advanced to a point where chemotherapy and radiation would no longer help, the judge said, he would not order the boy to undergo treatment."
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That's purely subjective though, and it's still on grounds of forcing someone to make a decision for their own children.
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Yes, because the decision that the parents will make, is sure to result in the death of the child. The court's decision will probably save his life.
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But who is anyone to say that?
Are we going to start forcing parents to put sunscreen on their kids because if they don't it will lead to cancer or are we going to start forcing parents to give their child who has ADD pills because if they don't the child won't live to their full potential?
I'm sorry, it's absolute crap.
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I believe that I have seen of cases where the parents were charged with child neglect when the child did have severe sunburn because the parent neglected to put sunscreen on.
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Beasty Heart
Status: Offline
Points: 32181
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:38 |
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Denying a child life-saving medical care is evil.
What if religious parents said, "Well, food is evil. We don't need any of that. The Spirit of Cthulu will sustain us."
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Again, not an apt comparison.
Chemotherapy BREAKS DOWN a person; ineffective medical care is NOT the same as basic survival needs, I'm sorry, that's just common sense.
It is innate in our survival skills that food is necessary for people to live, and that would qualify as starving a child. I would agree then that the parents are being stupid and something needs to be done---when something as essential as that is purposefully being taken away.
Cancer is unfortunate, but because it seems to be caused by just about ANYTHING and because our treatment methods are not effective, I believe that is not denying someone a survival right.
In fact, I would much rather live on not knowing I had cancer than find out I have cancer and get tons of half-assed treatments for it. Part of the reason people die from cancer is because of the treatments, another part is because of a mental loss (loss of a will to fight, depression, etc.), and another part is the actual disease.
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f**k that.
I want to live.
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I love how you addressed my points.
I'm extremely skeptical when it comes to cancer treatment at this stage in the game, and I'm skeptical in the idea of going to someone else to figure out what's wrong with your own body. Manipulation and misdiagnoses happen all the time, unfortunately.
Not all doctors are like that, and I'm glad some actually know what they're doing, but I think the reliance on medical treatment that people are being raised on in this society is bordering on ridiculous.
"Let's go to the doctor every time something appears to be wrong with me and have everyone else pay for it!"
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I don't go to the doctor often at all. But I'm smart enough to know that years of experience and medical school makes most physicians more qualified to tell me about what's going on with me.
You act like you know more about the inner-workings of your body than someone else because it's yours. That's simply not true.
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I never said I know more. Now with the internet and tons of books, there are endless possibilities to find out medical information. What's wrong with self-diagnosis? Then you have the advantage of knowing exactly what you are feeling, and you can have the opinions of many different people rather than just one.
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I do it all the time. And I've been wrong about half the time. The Internet is full of opinions of morons. If I think my doctor is a moron, I will seek a second opinion. And I've done that before.
Plus, the Internet can't write prescriptions.
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The internet is no more full of opinions of morons than of in person. If you want a prescription, that's when you go see a physician.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66244
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:39 |
Apparently, it was even neighbors of yours and Davids. http://www.wlky.com/news/16557870/detail.html
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Beasty Heart
Status: Offline
Points: 32181
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:39 |
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
KoS wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
When chemotherapy is as ineffective as it is now, no.
When it becomes better in the future, perhaps.
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It's one of the only options left for cancer patients. Two of my friends have had family members that have survived cancer because of chemo. Yes, it's not efficient, but doing nothing is not an option.
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Why not?
People probably died of cancer all the time before we knew what it was, and I bet you tons of people lived much longer NOT KNOWING it was there than if they knew it was there---you'd be surprised at how much power the mind really has.
It certainly is an option, in my opinion. And forcing someone to provide that for their children is another step in the wrong direction that this country is taking.
Once the treatment actually becomes effective in not destroying the mental and physical state of a person, then we'll talk.
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I do believe you are severely overestimating the side effects of chemotherapy.
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I do believe you are severely underestimating the sheer will power of the human mind.
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Okay, Professor X. I'll go will my hemorrhoids away now.
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That's real logical.
I never said he could CURE his own disease anywhere in there, did I?
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You're right. You didn't.
I'll go make my hemorrhoids a little better with my mind then.
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Well, you can decide whether to complain about it all the time or whether to just deal with it and move on with your life, can't you?
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:40 |
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Maybe I'm being biased because "alternative medicine" makes me SO DAMN ANGRY. People are just ignoring evidence like conspiracy theorists, but since to the uninformed person they're not as obviously crazy as someone claiming 9/11 was an inside job society, Jenny McCarthy gets a segment on Oprah to spout her bullsh*t and more innocent children get hurt by their dumbass parents.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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KoS
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 16310
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:40 |
MovingPictures07 wrote:
KoS wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
KoS wrote:
"If the evaluation shows the cancer had advanced to a point where
chemotherapy and radiation would no longer help, the judge said, he
would not order the boy to undergo treatment."
|
That's purely subjective though, and it's still on grounds of forcing someone to make a decision for their own children.
|
Yes, because the decision that the parents will make, is sure to result in the death of the child. The court's decision will probably save his life.
|
But who is anyone to say that?
Are we going to start forcing parents to put sunscreen on their kids because if they don't it will lead to cancer or are we going to start forcing parents to give their child who has ADD pills because if they don't the child won't live to their full potential?
I'm sorry, it's absolute crap.
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90% survival rate vs %5 survival rate. The judge is ordering the kid to go under evaluation, something that the kid's parents refused. If the parents actually went to see a number of doctors and all said the the kid did not need chemo, then it would be totally different. ADD is trickier because it is not always a matter of life and death. With cancer you have a window of opportunity, with ADD you have years. You are using the slippery slope fallacy.
Edited by KoS - May 15 2009 at 15:42
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Beasty Heart
Status: Offline
Points: 32181
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:40 |
What is the world coming to? 
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:41 |
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
KoS wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
When chemotherapy is as ineffective as it is now, no.
When it becomes better in the future, perhaps.
|
It's one of the only options left for cancer patients. Two of my friends have had family members that have survived cancer because of chemo. Yes, it's not efficient, but doing nothing is not an option.
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Why not?
People probably died of cancer all the time before we knew what it was, and I bet you tons of people lived much longer NOT KNOWING it was there than if they knew it was there---you'd be surprised at how much power the mind really has.
It certainly is an option, in my opinion. And forcing someone to provide that for their children is another step in the wrong direction that this country is taking.
Once the treatment actually becomes effective in not destroying the mental and physical state of a person, then we'll talk.
|
I do believe you are severely overestimating the side effects of chemotherapy.
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I do believe you are severely underestimating the sheer will power of the human mind.
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Okay, Professor X. I'll go will my hemorrhoids away now.
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That's real logical.
I never said he could CURE his own disease anywhere in there, did I?
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You're right. You didn't.
I'll go make my hemorrhoids a little better with my mind then.
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Well, you can decide whether to complain about it all the time or whether to just deal with it and move on with your life, can't you?
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Have you ever had them?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:42 |
rushfan4 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
KoS wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
When chemotherapy is as ineffective as it is now, no.
When it becomes better in the future, perhaps.
|
It's one of the only options left for cancer patients. Two of my friends have had family members that have survived cancer because of chemo. Yes, it's not efficient, but doing nothing is not an option.
|
Why not?
People probably died of cancer all the time before we knew what it was, and I bet you tons of people lived much longer NOT KNOWING it was there than if they knew it was there---you'd be surprised at how much power the mind really has.
It certainly is an option, in my opinion. And forcing someone to provide that for their children is another step in the wrong direction that this country is taking.
Once the treatment actually becomes effective in not destroying the mental and physical state of a person, then we'll talk.
|
I do believe you are severely overestimating the side effects of chemotherapy.
|
I do believe you are severely underestimating the sheer will power of the human mind.
|
Okay, Professor X. I'll go will my hemorrhoids away now.
|
That's real logical.
I never said he could CURE his own disease anywhere in there, did I?
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You're right. You didn't.
I'll go make my hemorrhoids a little better with my mind then.
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I always thought you had your head up your ass, I didn't realize that you were trying to make your hemorrhoids better. (jk) |
 That's too damn funny.
Touche, touche.
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Beasty Heart
Status: Offline
Points: 32181
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:42 |
KoS wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
KoS wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
KoS wrote:
"If the evaluation shows the cancer had advanced to a point where
chemotherapy and radiation would no longer help, the judge said, he
would not order the boy to undergo treatment."
|
That's purely subjective though, and it's still on grounds of forcing someone to make a decision for their own children.
|
Yes, because the decision that the parents will make, is sure to result in the death of the child. The court's decision will probably save his life.
|
But who is anyone to say that?
Are we going to start forcing parents to put sunscreen on their kids because if they don't it will lead to cancer or are we going to start forcing parents to give their child who has ADD pills because if they don't the child won't live to their full potential?
I'm sorry, it's absolute crap.
|
90% survival rate vs %5 survival rate.
The judge is ordering the kid to go under evaluation, something that the kid's parents refused.
ADD is trickier because it is not always a matter of life and death. With cancer you have a window of opportunity, with ADD you have years.
You are using the slipper slope fallacy.
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I'm against the government forcing parents to make decisions like that, whether it's ADD or cancer. It's a matter of principle, not a fallacy.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:43 |
MovingPictures07 wrote:
What is the world coming to?
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I REJECTED THESE IDEALS AND SO I FOUNDED RAPTURE!
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Well, you can decide whether to complain about it all the time or whether to just deal with it and move on with your life, can't you?
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What? What are you even saying?
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:43 |
MovingPictures07 wrote:
KoS wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
KoS wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
KoS wrote:
"If the evaluation shows the cancer had advanced to a point where
chemotherapy and radiation would no longer help, the judge said, he
would not order the boy to undergo treatment."
|
That's purely subjective though, and it's still on grounds of forcing someone to make a decision for their own children.
|
Yes, because the decision that the parents will make, is sure to result in the death of the child. The court's decision will probably save his life.
|
But who is anyone to say that?
Are we going to start forcing parents to put sunscreen on their kids because if they don't it will lead to cancer or are we going to start forcing parents to give their child who has ADD pills because if they don't the child won't live to their full potential?
I'm sorry, it's absolute crap.
|
90% survival rate vs %5 survival rate.
The judge is ordering the kid to go under evaluation, something that the kid's parents refused.
ADD is trickier because it is not always a matter of life and death. With cancer you have a window of opportunity, with ADD you have years.
You are using the slipper slope fallacy.
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I'm against the government forcing parents to make decisions like that, whether it's ADD or cancer. It's a matter of principle, not a fallacy.
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Ten bucks says this joker would feel completely different if he had sh*tty parents.
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Beasty Heart
Status: Offline
Points: 32181
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:43 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
Maybe I'm being biased because "alternative medicine" makes me SO DAMN ANGRY. People are just ignoring evidence like conspiracy theorists, but since to the uninformed person they're not as obviously crazy as someone claiming 9/11 was an inside job society, Jenny McCarthy gets a segment on Oprah to spout her bullsh*t and more innocent children get hurt by their dumbass parents. |
That's understandable. I'm not supporting alternative medicine; I'm just against telling people what to do.
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:45 |
That dad's a moron and deserves the consequences of whatever comes to him. But again, no one told him not to put sunscreen on his child. It's his own damn fault and hopefully for his son's sake he learns better next time.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:45 |
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
Maybe I'm being biased because "alternative medicine" makes me SO DAMN ANGRY. People are just ignoring evidence like conspiracy theorists, but since to the uninformed person they're not as obviously crazy as someone claiming 9/11 was an inside job society, Jenny McCarthy gets a segment on Oprah to spout her bullsh*t and more innocent children get hurt by their dumbass parents. |
That's understandable.
I'm not supporting alternative medicine; I'm just against telling people what to do.
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But some people are f**king morons.
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KoS
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 16310
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:46 |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8043490.stm
"Vermont has introduced a bill that would legalise the consensual
exchange of graphic images between two 13-to-18-year-olds, although
passing on such images would remain a crime."
Proof that not all government is evil.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66244
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:46 |
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
Maybe I'm being biased because "alternative medicine" makes me SO DAMN ANGRY. People are just ignoring evidence like conspiracy theorists, but since to the uninformed person they're not as obviously crazy as someone claiming 9/11 was an inside job society, Jenny McCarthy gets a segment on Oprah to spout her bullsh*t and more innocent children get hurt by their dumbass parents. |
That's understandable.
I'm not supporting alternative medicine; I'm just against telling people what to do.
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In many instances I agree with this. I don't think that the government should be able to tell me that I have to wear a seatbelt. If I am dumb enough to take the chance of being thrown out my windshield I should be allowed to. Same goes with motorcycle helmets. But again I am an adult and I should be able to make that decision on my own. On the other hand, I shouldn't be able to allow my child sit in the front seat without a seatbelt on because I am an idiot. That is child endangerment.
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Beasty Heart
Status: Offline
Points: 32181
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 15:46 |
You missed one of my earlier posts; I'm against people going to the doctor every single time they think something is wrong with them. Sometimes you just deal with things, move on, and they go away. Cancer is obviously something different, but the same principle applies to everything. If someone knows they have cancer, they will be more apt to die from it than someone who doesn't because of mental outlook.
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