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Ivan_Melgar_M 
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Joined: April 27 2004
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 Posted: May 06 2009 at 20:26 |
 crimson87 wrote:
Probably not to that extent , but If I am "challenged" I'd rather like to be challenged by music. I see vocals as another instrument , that why for example Magma works for me.
I see vocals only as another instrument in the case of Focus, because it's mostly yodeling and making sounds, but lyrics are more for me, I'd rather listen intelligent lyrics than more crappy lyrics.
And ... to be honest , I don't want to decipher records like this guy did.
Have you read Borges? Trying to make an interpretation of what he reads is good as a personal experiment, but reading the opinion of another person is absurd, kills the fun.
The same happens wuith gensis, I enjoy the lyrics and make my own interpretations, lets face it, in a conceptual album, words are crucial, Six Wives of Henry the VIII, may be about absolutely anything like "Six of the Seven Dwarfs of Snow White" or as someone else said before "Six breakfasts at Denny's", (Don't laugh, Focus made an epic about the hamburgers), because without lyrics, I'm clueless, I love the album, but words would help.
So I may understand you don't like Thick as a Brick because it also has very intelligent lyrics and quite pretentious?
Great work yes , but too tedious to read. You end up thinking: What's the big deal? I mean this is just a record some bloke did. , I mean I'd rather read Machiavelli. Far more trascendental.
Fopr me a good lyric makes a song more transcendental.
Iván
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crimson87
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
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Points: 1818
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Posted: May 06 2009 at 20:33 |
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No I actually like TAAB but I never put atention to the lyrics on that one , I'll try doing that next time I'll hear it. Not that I don't like good lyrics but I like them to be more "in your face" like Zappa did.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: May 06 2009 at 20:43 |
[QUOTE=crimson87]No I actually like TAAB but I never put atention to the lyrics on that one ¿,/QUOTE]
Then do the same with Genesis, all that Gerald ·Little Milton" Bostock" story, the false ethics in British societty, criticism about religion, etc in TAAB is at least as pretentious and intelligent as Genesis lyrics.
I do0n't understand how it's easier to ignore crappy lyrics than good ones 
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 06 2009 at 20:44
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el dingo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2008
Location: Norwich UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7053
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Posted: May 07 2009 at 01:36 |
Lucent wrote:
[
What doesn't appeal for me is that british feeling that they give off in SEBTP. f**king hated that so much. |
I can understand that, but as a native Brit trust me there is so much more to, say, Battle of Epping Forest, than Gabriel just adopting silly vocal tones for effect. At this stage they were a quintessentially English band and that is totally evident throughout the album. There is a lot of wit on this album but in a totally non-discriminatory way you really do have to be British to get some of the references. This particular track mocks the concept of the UK Press glamourising gangsters: characters like Liquid Len (of wine, women and Wandsworth fame) - Wandsworth is a prison - did and do exist in the UK. None of us on PA would like to meet Mick the Prick (fresh out the nick - prison reference again) on a dark night.
In reverse fashion, even lyrics as basic as Springsteen's with all the references to teamsters, blue collar unions, Johnstown Company, American cars etc ad infinitum can confuse the average Brit. I had to ask an American mate what some of these terms meant and that's about one of the most straightforward rock acts, let alone something as complex as Genesis!
Perversely, that British feeling you pick up on so rightly on SEBTP is what finally broke Genesis into the big league in the UK.
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It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough.
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Alberto Muñoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: May 07 2009 at 16:41 |
crimson87 wrote:
Lucent wrote:
Not to mention that every single song sounded pretentious as hell IN MY OPINION. |
I always thought that as well , not musically but lyrically which in my opinion is the ultimate way of pretentiousness. I know you don't like ELP but as an example they were always about rock n' roll no matter how challenging their music was. Crappy lyrics yes , but I couldn't care less.
On the other hand Peter Gabriel always with his Hermaphroditus , Lamias and Musical boxes... I have to admit that the music is great and the band is emotional but C'mon if I were to learn about something I 'd rather read a book , not being lectured by a rock artist. |
Lyrical content in Genesis songs is great for me, i wish other bands have those intelligent and meaningful lyrics.
Actually you can learn a lot about the Genesis (Gabriel years) lyrics or at least being motivade to pick up a book to get more in depth into the themes.
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Alberto Muñoz
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Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
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Posted: May 07 2009 at 16:45 |
crimson87 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
If making intelligent elaborate lyrics is pretentious then give me more peretentios music.
The last phrase is a prove of`prejudice, you don't care about the lyrics, you don't like a Rock star making lyrics about politics, mythology, violence etc...I'd believe your prefer to leave that to the writters, and Rock artists should stay talking about sex, drugs and Rock & Roll.
Iván |
Probably not to that extent , but If I am "challenged" I'd rather like to be challenged by music. I see vocals as another instrument , that why for example Magma works for me.
And ... to be honest , I don't want to decipher records like this guy did.
Great work yes , but too tedious to read. You end up thinking: What's the big deal? I mean this is just a record some bloke did. , I mean I'd rather read Machiavelli. Far more trascendental.
About this i never end up thinking what you think of the guy that wrote that annotated lamb, and actually that guy who wrote that essay has ended reading by detractors of Genesis music.
About the Machiavelli read, i think is a counter argument that means nothing an is absurd, is like to say for example: "I do not like ELP i rather listen to Bach if i like elaborate music ."
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himtroy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1601
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Posted: May 07 2009 at 20:37 |
crimson87 wrote:
No I actually like TAAB but I never put atention to the lyrics on that one , I'll try doing that next time I'll hear it. Not that I don't like good lyrics but I like them to be more "in your face" like Zappa did. |
I woudn't bother too much. The lyrics are well crafted and whitty, but Ian Mcdonald himself has said they are just that, crafty wording, and it's not about anything. People will look at it and say "oh it's a criticism of.....modern society...." or something like that, but nope.
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Icarium
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Joined: March 21 2008
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Points: 34055
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 08:41 |
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i love both Selling England By the Pound and Foxtrot (they i have bought so far) realy good prog albums and Firth to Fifth is so beutifull and mindblowing.
but i also like Land of Confusion i just love the creepy atmosphere of that song and musicvideo. grat guitar riff, bass rifff, a great Heavy prog track.
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Captain Capricorn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 21 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1085
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 12:54 |
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The work produced by Genesis' classic lineup (1971 - 1974) is the epitome of progressive rock ...with epic tracks like The Musical Box, The Return of the Giant Hogweed, Watcher of the Skies, Supper's Ready, Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, The Battle of Epping Forest, Fly on a Windshield, Back in N.Y.C., etc., I don't see how there could ever even be a question of their validity as a progressive rock outfit. Classic Genesis IS progressive rock!
Edited by Captain Capricorn - May 09 2009 at 12:55
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progrules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 14 2007
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 958
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 13:28 |
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To me there are about 15-20 Genesis songs really worth while (and about 5 masterpiece tracks) but the rest ... mwah, I can live without. So not of the biggest fans you might say.
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A day without prog is a wasted day
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mourningknight
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Joined: October 20 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 203
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 17:28 |
Gabriel era Genesis is the greatest thing ever created for me. My #1 and all-time favorite,no contest. I also love A Trick Of The Tail and Wind and Wuthering. They fall into the same category. 1970-1977 Genesis just rules so hard in my opinion. That's why albums like Abacab,Genesis,Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance are so hard to take.It actually made me ill just typing those titles,lol. (ATTWT and Duke actually have some really great moments). Ok,I'll change it to Genesis 1970-1980. An incredible and stunning 10 years of music!
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mourningknight
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Joined: October 20 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 203
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 17:30 |
Captain Capricorn wrote:
The work produced by Genesis' classic lineup (1971 - 1974) is the epitome of progressive rock ...with epic tracks like The Musical Box, The Return of the Giant Hogweed, Watcher of the Skies, Supper's Ready, Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, The Battle of Epping Forest, Fly on a Windshield, Back in N.Y.C., etc., I don't see how there could ever even be a question of their validity as a progressive rock outfit. Classic Genesis IS progressive rock! |
Nicely said Captain! 
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 19:53 |
mourningknight wrote:
Captain Capricorn wrote:
The work produced by Genesis' classic lineup (1971 - 1974) is the epitome of progressive rock ...with epic tracks like The Musical Box, The Return of the Giant Hogweed, Watcher of the Skies, Supper's Ready, Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, The Battle of Epping Forest, Fly on a Windshield, Back in N.Y.C., etc., I don't see how there could ever even be a question of their validity as a progressive rock outfit. Classic Genesis IS progressive rock! |
Nicely said Captain! |
I second, third, and fourth that!
Actually, personally, without Genesis I probably wouldn't really care for 70's progressive rock at all. (Pink Floyd is another thing...) They're the only ones of the classic era of prog that are in constant rotation with me...
And even if I didn't like them, it would be utterly absurd to question their validity as prog icon, as would be questioning that of Yes, King Crimson, GentleGiant or ELP. All of these (plus a few more) define that era. I can't believe someone doesn't at least give them their well-earned place.
Edited by The T - May 09 2009 at 19:55
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Avantgardehead
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2006
Location: Dublin, OH, USA
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Points: 1170
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 21:03 |
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Genesis got me into prog, and they're my #1 listened-to band on Last.fm. I still haven't found any artist with melodies as good as classic Genesis...
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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Lucent
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 18 2007
Location: Canada
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Points: 259
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 21:28 |
mr.cub wrote:
Lucent wrote:
The Pessimist wrote:
I like Lamb Lies Down. As for the rest, I've never really cared for it. I've tried as well, and perhaps I even had a phase at some point, but they're just not for me. I'm guessing that the most appealing factor about them is their quirkiness and theatrical side? |
What doesn't appeal for me is that british feeling that they give off in SEBTP. f**king hated that so much. I wish it had more of a swampy Americana feel to it
Not to mention that every single song sounded pretentious as hell IN MY OPINION. Pity...this is a prog site right? |
Enough cannot be said about Genesis. An incredible combination of emotion and brains, simplicity and complexity, and tremendous dynamics... |
There's a difference between overdoing it and doing it just right. Genesis overdid it in my opinion.
Progressive doesn't necessarily mean you have to be pretentious.
I don't want to see the criticism of mindless fanboys either.
Edited by Lucent - May 09 2009 at 21:29
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Canprog
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Joined: March 29 2009
Location: Canada
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Points: 144
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 21:50 |
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Disagree I love Genesis.
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Atavachron
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Joined: September 30 2006
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 22:23 |
Lucent wrote:
There's a difference between overdoing it and doing it just right. Genesis overdid it in my opinion.
- overdid it more than Yes, ELP or any number of other prog acts? Not sure if that really follows.
Progressive doesn't necessarily mean you have to be pretentious.
- True but progressive is often seen that way, so we might as well embrace it.. frankly Genesis, the early work particularly, was rather pretentious in a bold and sophisticated way. So be it.
I don't want to see the criticism of mindless fanboys either.
- oh I think you do, otherwise why repeatedly post in a Genesis thread 
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Edited by Atavachron - May 09 2009 at 22:24
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mr.cub
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Joined: March 06 2009
Location: Lexington, VA
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 22:49 |
Lucent wrote:
There's a difference between overdoing it and doing it just right. Genesis overdid it in my opinion. Fair enough, personally the beginning of Dancing With the Moonlit Knight is among the finest music I have ever heard and incredibly well done.
Progressive doesn't necessarily mean you have to be pretentious. Criticize an album for its poor songwriting, lack of melody, incongruities, or its inability to provoke you. Saying its pretentious doesn't mean anything to me, a lot of music can be pretentious and good (take the Final Countdown for instance). I find Genesis to be one of the least 'pretentious' of the major 70's bands; the instrumental sections aren't forced and they allow the music to develop. As for the lyrics, well they have an English eccentricity and charm to them, but they're well written and fit the music and mood quite well. Of course, Gabriel's delivery doesn't hurt.
I don't want to see the criticism of mindless fanboys either. Hahaha...yeah I live and breath Genesis; its all I've ever listened to. Since the original poster hadn't heard progressive Genesis what am I supposed to say? That Genesis' music is not worth listening too, not an intergral part of the early Prog Movement? It certainly would be foolish of me to say so wouldn't it not? |
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prog4evr
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Joined: September 22 2005
Location: Wuhan, China
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Posted: May 10 2009 at 01:20 |
TripBalls wrote:
...I also really enjoy Brand X, though I can't imagine there being ne similarities in sound. So, either tell me theres nothing wrong me and I just have a different taste in music... |
First of all, I only like Gabriel-era Genesis - and that is not the sh*t they normally play on the radio.  Secondly, you are right about Brand X and Genesis being so different. That is actually one of the reasons why Collins joined the band - because he was able to do things in Brand X that he wasn't able to do in Genesis (as per a quote in Gallo's old [1980] book "I Know What I Like" on Genesis). So, the bottom-line is: "To Each His Own." You just have different tastes in music - no biggee...
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SgtPepper67
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Joined: October 17 2007
Location: Argentina
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Points: 530
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Posted: May 10 2009 at 09:41 |
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I disagree Genesis overdid anything and I don't think they were pretentious, at least not as much as many other prog bands. Their arrangements doesn't sound forced or unnecessarily complex, they usually added what their songs needed IMO.
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In the end the love you take is equal to the love you made...
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I'm prolly the only one here but....Genesis?
