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Soul Dreamer 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 17 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 997
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 Topic: List manipulation?
Posted: April 17 2009 at 09:40 |
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I was looking at the new Gazpacho album, and saw there is one rating with 1 star. I can't believe somebody can rate that album that low, so I checked the user to see what he rated more. This is what I found:
http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=23553
All Pink Floyd albums rated at 5*, TD's Phaedra also 5*, and the rest (all Genesis, Yes, Rush, etc etc...) 1*
All ratings without review... Looks like a clear case of (attempt at) list manipulation....
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To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica)
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 09:43 |
I'd say: All is fair in love, war and ratings. 
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 09:46 |
Incidentally, something has happen, so that Tick Tock is in the top 20 albums ALL-TIME with just 25 ratings. 
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Soul Dreamer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 17 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 997
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 09:52 |
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^^^ Yes, but that's just a consequence of the used algorithm...It will go down when more serious (collaborators) reviews are posted. I didn't post this complaint because I want to see Gazpacho high, but just because I think it's crazy that only PF would be 5* and all the rest garbage... The person clearly wants to see the PF albums high in the charts....
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To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica)
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 10:09 |
I agree that such blatant fanboy-ism should be nuked when it is this obvious. We should have a SC in charge of sniffing out such attempts to manipulate, and that person should have the power to take action swiftly and nuke the account (under the fast approval of Admin of course, until the person's judgement is trustworthy). Unfortunately I doubt this will happen.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 12:33 |
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^ Of course I agree that those ratings can hardly be taken seriously ... but where do you draw the line? I've seen many collabs give 1 star to albums that are firmly in the 4-5 stars range with broad support from normal members and collabs ... should we nuke those "hateboys" too?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 12:48 |
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The only way a person can successfully "manipulate" ratings (other than by creating multiple accounts or hacking into the system) is quite simply if no one else rates or reviews albums.
Those "rebel" ratings can be just as valid (I've given my share of 1, 2, and 3 star reviews to "masterpieces"), and they will only have a huge impact if an album has very few reviews. Otherwise, the system will eventually correct itself, and those one or two "off-the-wall" ratings won't matter so much.
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 12:48 |
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Will be checked out, thanks for reporting. Remember though that ratings without reviews have much reduced influence on the ratings calculations.
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 12:53 |
 Soul Dreamer wrote:
^^^ Yes, but that's just a consequence of the used algorithm...It will go down when more serious (collaborators) reviews are posted. I didn't post this complaint because I want to see Gazpacho high, but just because I think it's crazy that only PF would be 5* and all the rest garbage... The person clearly wants to see the PF albums high in the charts....
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It's because of the current algorithm that Gazpacho's album, with just 25 ratings, is among 20-30 albums with more than 400-500 ratings?! 
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 12:57 |
Ricochet wrote:
Soul Dreamer wrote:
^^^ Yes, but that's just a consequence of the used algorithm...It will go down when more serious (collaborators) reviews are posted. I didn't post this complaint because I want to see Gazpacho high, but just because I think it's crazy that only PF would be 5* and all the rest garbage... The person clearly wants to see the PF albums high in the charts....
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It's because of the current algorithm that Gazpacho's album, with just 25 ratings, is among 20-30 albums with more than 400-500 ratings?!
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Must be one helluva album!  I like what Gazpacho I've heard, so I should get this when I can.
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 13:22 |
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 13:26 |
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What I've heard is good enough....but not 4.80 good.....maybe 4.05 or so.....listening to some tracks now.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 13:36 |
Negoba wrote:
What I've heard is good enough....but not 4.80 good.....maybe 4.05 or so.....listening to some tracks now. |
Well, when you're ready, rate it accordingly, and eventually the album will fall in its rightful place.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 13:43 |
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I intend to, but I also like to give it some time because first impressions (especially in prog) can be pretty skewed. If I end up giving it a 4 as I suspect, it will make very little difference. But I have some more listens first and a few other albums ahead of it in the queue.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 13:57 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 35886
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 15:04 |
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I'm surprised to see an album in the top ten (Gazpacho's) with only four reviews. It has 23 ratings without reviews (mind you, one of those ratings is ProgLucky's so that makes a difference).
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 15:13 |
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I'm not... but that's why I've suggested letting everyone has their voice.. their say.. their ratings and reviews. but only using collab reviews to do the site's album lists.
some of the benefits...
encourage people to write reviews... write good ones... and get promoted to where their reviews count if influencing the rankings matters that much.
eliminates manipulation.... manipulating collabs soon lose the ability to manipulate.. and also being a collab.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 15:20 |
micky wrote:
I'm not... but that's why I've suggested letting everyone has their voice.. their say.. their ratings and reviews. but only using collab reviews to do the site's album lists.
some of the benefits...
encourage people to write reviews... write good ones... and get promoted to where their reviews count if influencing the rankings matters that much.
eliminates manipulation.... manipulating collabs soon lose the ability to manipulate.. and also being a collab.
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I think that punishes the 95% of the non-collaborators who give a sh*t about what they do.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 15:20 |
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You mean if I keep rating my fanboy albums like Foxtrot and CTTE 5 stars I'm going to be demoted?
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: April 17 2009 at 15:35 |
Epignosis wrote:
micky wrote:
I'm not... but that's why I've suggested letting everyone has their voice.. their say.. their ratings and reviews. but only using collab reviews to do the site's album lists.
some of the benefits...
encourage people to write reviews... write good ones... and get promoted to where their reviews count if influencing the rankings matters that much.
eliminates manipulation.... manipulating collabs soon lose the ability to manipulate.. and also being a collab.
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I think that punishes the 95% of the non-collaborators who give a sh*t about what they do.
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punishing? I think that is getting into the realm of melodramatic. I'm not the one crying about the album lists... I learned to ignore them years ago. Some are though.. and if people want rankings and lists that mean something... let the professional reviewers influence them. If one isn't one... then try to become one. Otherwise no one is punished.. anyone and everyone can review albums. If someone is upset about not being able to manipulate the charts.. then most likely they are reviewing for the wrong reasons anyway.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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List manipulation?
