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Dean 
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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 Posted: March 19 2009 at 12:09 |
^ We're not that draconian in the UK - we do actually listen to employees (occasionally)
The bus driver in question requested not to drive the bus and the bus company (First Bus) complied with his wishes:
 Guardian Newspaper, Friday 16 January 2009 wrote:
First Bus had been "very good" and was doing its best to ensure he did not have to drive any of the buses, he said. However, if the atheist campaign continued beyond its scheduled run to the end of February "I will seriously consider giving up my job".
A spokesman for First Bus said the company took no stance on any legal advertisements placed on its vehicles but recognised the strength of Heather's feelings and was "doing what we can to accommodate his request not to drive the buses concerned". |
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What?
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InvisibleUnicorns
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 130
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 12:11 |
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In that case, there's no problem. Presumably he did the latter bit of what I said (meeting with management to resolve the issue).
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 12:18 |
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^ He just asked is supervisor not to drive the bus. No great deal - that's what supervisors are paid for.
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What?
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 12:44 |
Dean wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
Sure. The whole point, in buddism reincarnation, is to pay more attention to the nature that surrounds you, to find inner peace with it as well.
Otherwise, reincarnation is pretty much unaccepted by the other major religions.
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Theoretically, since it's the soul that gets reincarnated, it couldn't be reincarnated into a plant since plants have no soul. |
ah-hem... animism 
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ooops!!!!!! 
You're right!!
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 14:02 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I thought I am an ultra right oriented person, but there's peope who stuill believe the rights of the workers don't exist, that are more or less machines with flesh.
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I thought I was a very left-leaning left person, and yet I believe the guy who doesn't want to follow his employer's guidelines should find another job....
Funny how our religious affiliation (or lack thereof) color our opinions....
Edited by The T - March 19 2009 at 14:04
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 14:26 |
InvisibleUnicorns wrote:
That said, of course he is a person and of course he has rights, but he does not or at least should not have the right to make the company bend to his wishes, especially when doing so will cause them to incur a loss. He agreed to work for the company on certain terms and he should stick to those terms.
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False, I'm a lawyer and have been in work agreements following the rules of the OIT.
The worker has the right to protect his opinions and his freedom of choice, he can make a complain against the company if he feels his personal rights are being harmed.
If he believes his right to freedom of opinion and belief is beingg diominished, he has the right recognized universaly to reject that act.
The work Ministry will decide if his choice is correct or not.
Iván
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InvisibleUnicorns
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 130
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Posted: March 19 2009 at 14:56 |
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His freedom of opinion is nowhere close to being compromised in this situation. Perhaps he should wear a cross if he wants to distance himself from the message on the bus. That message does not infringe on his rights, does not infringe on the rights of the people who ride the bus, and does on infringe on the rights of the people who read it as the bus drives by.
I think it's safe to assume you are correct that he can take legal action in this situation, but all that means is that there is a bad law in place. The fact that he was able to solve the situation to both his and the company's satisfaction suggest that the law is not needed, and the fact that, had he been unable to reach that agreement, he had two other legitimate options, indicate clearly to me that the law is entirely unnecessary.
For the record, the only true rights I believe a person has are the right to liberty, the right to life, and maybe the right to property.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 20 2009 at 06:54 |
I'm gonna have to throw some red meat under the atheist bus campaign.  
Edited by Slartibartfast - March 20 2009 at 07:15
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 03:14 |
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yup, to revivev this dying thread...
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 13:53 |
InvisibleUnicorns wrote:
For the record, the only true rights I believe a person has are the right to liberty, the right to life, and maybe the right to property.
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A quote speaks more than 1'000,000 words:
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Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 6
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Article 7
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
Article 11
- Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
- No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
- Article 12
- No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
- Article 13
- Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
- Everyone has the right to leave any country, including their own, and to return to their country.
- Article 14
- Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
- This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
- Article 15
- Everyone has the right to a nationality.
- No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
- Article 16
- Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
- Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
- The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
- Article 17
- Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
- No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
- Article 18
- Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
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- Article 19
- Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
- A
- rticle 20
- Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
- No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
- Article 21
- Everyone has the right to take part in the government of their country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
- Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in their country.
- The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
- Article 22
- Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
- Article 23
- Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
- Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
- Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
- Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
- Article 24
- Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
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- Article 25
- Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
- Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
- Article 26
- Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
- Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
- Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
- Article 27
- Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
- Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
- Article 28
- Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
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- Article 29
- Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
- In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
- These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
- Article 30
- Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
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Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 22 2009 at 13:55
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InvisibleUnicorns
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 130
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 14:13 |
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Yes, I already mentioned that people have a right to liberty.
And even if that weren't covered by the right to liberty, laws can be flawed.
Reading through all those articles, the following articles are all extraneous (most of them follow logically from articles 1, 2, & 3):
4, 6, 7, 9, parts 1&2 of 16, 18, 19, 20, parts 1&2 of 21
Edited by InvisibleUnicorns - March 22 2009 at 14:22
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 14:17 |
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I can't help but notice that article 16 is a bit hazy
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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InvisibleUnicorns
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 130
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 14:23 |
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Part 3 of 16 is hazy, but parts 1&2 are a direct consequence of article 3.
Most of the hazy articles, IMO, are the ones towards the end, which claim as rights things that make no sense as rights (unemployment benefits, for example, make sense as an entitlement, but not as a right).
Edited by InvisibleUnicorns - March 22 2009 at 14:25
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 15:34 |
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I have to disagree. it is unclear whether the aspect of homosexual orientation and marriage is included or not
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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InvisibleUnicorns
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 130
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 15:50 |
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It's not explicitly stated, but if you accept article 3 as well then it's pretty clear that it is included (and any other interpretation is a misinterpretation).
(and also if you accept the article that states that the family is the fundamental unit of society)
Edited by InvisibleUnicorns - March 22 2009 at 15:52
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InvisibleUnicorns
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 130
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 19:07 |
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The world of human rights stands pretty clear in their favor.
The world of human gov't is another matter altogether.
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InvisibleUnicorns
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 130
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 19:28 |
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It is a huge point of debate, though. There are numerous ethical theories that posit that they don't exist, and of the ones that believe they do exist, there's hardly a consensus on what they are.
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visitor2035
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 26 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 61
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 19:45 |
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Why is my post pending approval.........? Who is scared of human rights? Are there only cowards on this site who kowtow to the first complainer.......would be interesting to know how many have complained against my true post.
Edited by visitor2035 - March 22 2009 at 19:46
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visitor2035
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 26 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 61
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 20:01 |
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Silence is golden.
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InvisibleUnicorns
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 130
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 20:02 |
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Micky's post has been hidden, too.
I am at a loss for why.
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