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Raff 
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 Posted: March 22 2009 at 18:03 |
 crimson87 wrote:
micky wrote:
^ it AIN"T PROG .... therefore it stinks hahhaha.
works for pop... why not jazz 
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According to the site , one of the best "Jazz rock/fusion" albums ever 
So many negative votes for Hamburguer concerto and Harmonium , two of my favourites. By the way , I thought Kansas was Heavy prog not symphonic. |
Kansas have never been in Heavy Prog, nor are they likely to be moved. We of the HP team might even agree to the move, but I am 100% sure the Symphonic team would never give them over to us  .
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ghost_of_morphy
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Joined: March 08 2007
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Points: 2755
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 18:44 |
micky wrote:
it isn't about dislike Morphy... people wonder why an album with 3 good songs makes the top 20. (well it IS Genesis hahha) Great as they are.. you figure a top 20 would be strong.. start to finish. Sure Genesis fans think it is start to finish.. but others do think it is like most Genesis albums... good/great songs mixed with average stuff..
thus the point... are there not 20 albums out there that are strong start to finish.... then again... look how many Genesis fans we have here hahha.
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LOL. If I didn't get that, it wouldn't have made the list. 
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ghost_of_morphy
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Joined: March 08 2007
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Points: 2755
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 18:48 |
crimson87 wrote:
I also used to believe that Nursery Cryme was the weakest album from Genesis prog phase , with only three very good tunes (Musical box , Hogweed and Salmacis). But after seveal listens it started to grow on me: The short tracks are good , specially Harold the barrel , and besides the opener the true gem of the record is Seven Stones , one of the most underated Genesis tracks.
Besides , the album has some charm with it's muddy sounding and it's a little bit more "agressive" - by Genesis standards I mean , don't expect a full blown "Barbarian" on that record!
In my opinion SEBTP is the overrated Genesis record in excellence , in order to be the best record of progressive music it has to be perfect from start to finish , and this record has some weak tracks like After the ordeal and Battle of epping forest also I find it to lack the power I enjoy in my music , too laid back and pastoral , sometimes dangerously bordering background music. |
Frankly, I've never really appreciated Fountain. Harold the Barrel and For Absent Friends have always appealed to me, though.
I would hardly call either After the Ordeal or The Battle of Epping Forest weak tracks (although I realize I'm in the minority on that second one.) Dancing with the Moonlight Night is the track that I find weaker (well, except for More Fool Me of course.)
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The Quiet One
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Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
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Points: 15745
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 18:50 |
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^I'm with you! battle of epping forest is excellent!
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Epignosis
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 19:06 |
Raff wrote:
crimson87 wrote:
micky wrote:
^ it AIN"T PROG .... therefore it stinks hahhaha.
works for pop... why not jazz
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According to the site , one of the best "Jazz rock/fusion" albums ever
So many negative votes for Hamburguer concerto and Harmonium , two of my favourites. By the way , I thought Kansas was Heavy prog not symphonic. |
Kansas have never been in Heavy Prog, nor are they likely to be moved. We of the HP team might even agree to the move, but I am 100% sure the Symphonic team would never give them over to us.
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I seem to recall Kansas being in the "Art Rock" toy box once upon a time.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 19:12 |
Epignosis wrote:
I seem to recall Kansas being in the "Art Rock" toy box once upon a time.
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Kansas was in Art Rock before the teams and when Prog Related didn't existed, they were considered a non 100% Prog band (Art Rock was the equivalent to Prog Related).
When the first Symphonic Team formed by Micky, Raff, Fragile DT, Cesar Inca and myself started to work, decided to move the band by unanimous vote to Symphonic (First session,. April or May 2006), because even though they have an obvious Hard Rock and country component,. what defines the band and allows them to be here is the fabulous Symphonic melodies and elaborate structure.
The Hard Rock component is only collateral, and the Country - Folk is limited mostly to some violin sections.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 22 2009 at 19:17
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Raff
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 19:12 |
They might have been, but it was before the AR team was ever founded.... I always remember them being in Symphonic, and I am quite positive they already were in the spring of 2006, when I joined the Symphonic Team. Edit: Ivan responded while I was writing this post .
Edited by Raff - March 22 2009 at 19:13
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micky
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 19:18 |
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yeah... we moved them to sympho just before you joined the team darling...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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rogerthat
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Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 20:42 |
Interesting opinions on Cryme and SEBTP. I think Fountain is a masterpiece, well at least by Genesis standards. And yes, I dig all the tracks on Cryme, it is really only a question of finding something that leaps at you from those shorter tracks, for some it happens quickly, takes more time for others, some never get it at all, that's alright. The problem with the short tracks on SEBTP is they don't bind too strongly with the epics. Actually even the epics work more as standalone songs and don't flow from one to another. I have to be in a specific Dancing With The Moonlit Knight mood or Firth mood, there's hardly ever a SEBTP mood for me. On Cryme, the three long tracks and Seven Stones work both as standalone pieces and as part of a whole album.
W.r.t to what is a masterpiece, I really think the core of the album is more important to determining what is a masterpiece. Would you dump a desert island album just because of two extremely short filler tracks and instead take a barely above average album but one without filler? For example, CTTE is not a masterpiece just because all three tracks are strong, that is quite irrelevant, the magnum opus that the title track is is enough to confer masterpiece status on it. At least, that's the way I look at it. If you say you didn't like Siberian Khatru and therefore CTTE is not a masterpiece for you but - insert a Camel album here! - is a masterpiece because it is very consistent  , I'd have to disagree. Likewise, SEBTP is a masterpiece in my book on account of Firth alone, it doesn't matter what else they didn't do on the album. And Nursery Cryme is too purely for Musical Box, I'd be rueful about it if all the other tracks were bad, but I still wouldn't deny credit to Musical Box. |
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micky
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 20:51 |
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interesting Roger... I did a mass Genesis listening for Rob some months back.. probably due for another one... I have been stuck with the same impressions of the same songs and albums since I was able to form them. No matter how many times I've listened to Cryme.. I can't deny the greatness of the Musical Box.. the killer riff on Hogweed or the gorgeous 'tron on Salmacis.. but the rest of the album.. I am always hard-pressed 10 minutes later to even recall anything... just no musical impression.
Oh well... time for a Genesis marathon tomorrow I guess...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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crimson87
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Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
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Points: 1818
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 20:55 |
micky wrote:
Oh well... time for a Genesis marathon tomorrow I guess...
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records
Don't push yourself too hard man! Take those sleeping pills slowly.
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micky
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 20:58 |
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I'll be fine with Genesis at least...my doc told me to stay away from the Camel's for 6 months...bad for the health
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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rogerthat
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Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 21:05 |
micky wrote:
interesting Roger... I did a mass Genesis listening for Rob some months back.. probably due for another one... I have been stuck with the same impressions of the same songs and albums since I was able to form them. No matter how many times I've listened to Cryme.. I can't deny the greatness of the Musical Box.. the killer riff on Hogweed or the gorgeous 'tron on Salmacis.. but the rest of the album.. I am always hard-pressed 10 minutes later to even recall anything... just no musical impression.
Oh well... time for a Genesis marathon tomorrow I guess...
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Well, if you have listened to Cryme many times, I doubt another would make an impact especially if nothing other than those three songs makes an impression on you, no harm in trying though, and as crimson87 put it, if nothing else, it might help get yourself some sleep, lest you get desensitized to Camel pills. And I am not sure a marathon session is a good idea for Genesis, for all you know, before even an hour is through, you start getting weary of Gabriel's voice and that's the end of it. One album at a time is a better option, but well, different people have different styles, so maybe marathons work best for you in general. 
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Atavachron
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 21:07 |
micky wrote:
hmmm.. that leads to the question... is there anything of the sort... an 'unflawed' masterpiece.
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a great topic, in fact some feel flaws are intrinsic to a masterpiece.. further, is masterpiece synonymous with perfect? Tales is certainly a masterpiece but not perfect, the Van Halen debut is perfect but not a masterpiece ..yeah, I have no idea what that means
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The T
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 21:08 |
My knowledge of the Top 20 is limited.... I have to say I wouldn't have included any YES album there except CTTE and maybe Relayer.... On the other hand, every Genesis album deserves to be there
Kansas' album also kind of overstays its welcome in that list.... I really can't grasp where the "symphonic" part of their sound is....
Edited by The T - March 22 2009 at 21:09
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The T
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 21:12 |
Peter wrote:
 Should I do a similar one for prog metal? (I bet The T would really appreciate that....) |
I would love it actually... 
But since prog-metal is hardly popular among classic-prog lovers, that thread would be run pretty much only by metalheads... therefore, it wouldn't be confrontational and would run actually quite smoothly...
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Epignosis
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Joined: December 30 2007
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 05:59 |
rogerthat wrote:
Interesting opinions on Cryme and SEBTP. I think Fountain is a masterpiece, well at least by Genesis standards. And yes, I dig all the tracks on Cryme, it is really only a question of finding something that leaps at you from those shorter tracks, for some it happens quickly, takes more time for others, some never get it at all, that's alright. The problem with the short tracks on SEBTP is they don't bind too strongly with the epics. Actually even the epics work more as standalone songs and don't flow from one to another. I have to be in a specific Dancing With The Moonlit Knight mood or Firth mood, there's hardly ever a SEBTP mood for me. On Cryme, the three long tracks and Seven Stones work both as standalone pieces and as part of a whole album.
W.r.t to what is a masterpiece, I really think the core of the album is more important to determining what is a masterpiece. Would you dump a desert island album just because of two extremely short filler tracks and instead take a barely above average album but one without filler? For example, CTTE is not a masterpiece just because all three tracks are strong, that is quite irrelevant, the magnum opus that the title track is is enough to confer masterpiece status on it. At least, that's the way I look at it. If you say you didn't like Siberian Khatru and therefore CTTE is not a masterpiece for you but - insert a Camel album here! - is a masterpiece because it is very consistent , I'd have to disagree. Likewise, SEBTP is a masterpiece in my book on account of Firth alone, it doesn't matter what else they didn't do on the album. And Nursery Cryme is too purely for Musical Box, I'd be rueful about it if all the other tracks were bad, but I still wouldn't deny credit to Musical Box. |
That sums up my feelings about Tarkus.
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Epignosis
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Joined: December 30 2007
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 06:02 |
The T wrote:
My knowledge of the Top 20 is limited.... I have to say I wouldn't have included any YES album there except CTTE and maybe Relayer.... On the other hand, every Genesis album deserves to be there
Kansas' album also kind of overstays its welcome in that list.... I really can't grasp where the "symphonic" part of their sound is.... |
Kansas's album is one of the only ones up there with any real commercial success, and I wonder if that's why it's so frowned upon. I think Yorkie said it well.
But symphonic? Try the songs "Miracles out of Nowhere," "Cheyenne Anthem," or "Magnum Opus," to name the biggest three.
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Roj
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 06:16 |
I've been watching this thread quite closely, but up to now I've not contributed as I'm not keen to simply "diss" albums from the top 20 I'm not mad on (and there's a few  ). I know 14 of these.
However, a top 20 count of:-
Genesis - 5
Yes - 4
Camel - 3
ELP - 0
leaves me shaking my head in disbelief.
I'd say probably 3 Genesis warrant inclusion (not all of my 3 are in the "official" top 20), 4 by Yes is about right (not those 4 though!!) but can't believe there's 3 Camel in there and no ELP.
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Epignosis
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 06:27 |
Roj M30 wrote:
I've been watching this thread quite closely, but up to now I've not contributed as I'm not keen to simply "diss" albums from the top 20 I'm not mad on (and there's a few ). I know 14 of these.
However, a top 20 count of:-
Genesis - 5
Yes - 4
Camel - 3
ELP - 0
leaves me shaking my head in disbelief.
I'd say probably 3 Genesis warrant inclusion (not all of my 3 are in the "official" top 20), 4 by Yes is about right (not those 4 though!!) but can't believe there's 3 Camel in there and no ELP. |
Hey Roger! Long time no chat! How're things?
(And which four Yes?)
You'd probably like see a little Flower King action in the top 20, no?
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Worst Album in the Symphonic Top 20
