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ten years after 
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 Posted: March 21 2009 at 22:19 |
 himtroy wrote:
Another thing is, that while us big prog fans might find certain people overrated, you go to the average person, and they won't even know who they are( Camel, Gong, Caravan, a lot of them). |
A good point.
If i'm talking to a prog fan I would say that i think Camel are over-rated. If i was discussing Camel with anyone else I would have to say that they were drastically under-rated since they are pretty good and most people will never even have heard of them.
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himtroy
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 21:47 |
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Another thing is, that while us big prog fans might find certain people overrated, you go to the average person, and they won't even know who they are( Camel, Gong, Caravan, a lot of them). So lets see this for what it really is, it's people on this board saying who they're SICK OF HEARING ABOUT. IE: Genesis, for the love of god, it's every other topic!
Edited by himtroy - March 21 2009 at 21:50
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ten years after
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 21:43 |
The term over-rated is interpreted rather strangely at times. To say that you find a band over-rated doesn't have to mean you don't like them, does it?
I suppose a majority of us here would put Genesis in the top ten prog bands. Anyone who placed Genesis at, say, number 20 would be entitled to say they were over-rated.
Going by the posts on this forum i would say Camel, Caravan and Jethro Tull are over-rated. Doesn't mean i don't like them just that i like them significantly less than the average forummer.
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ghost_of_morphy
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Points: 2755
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 20:20 |
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LOL. Anything that gets people expressing themselves in socially acceptable ways is welcome. Even if it provokes a rainbow quotefest from Ivan!
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himtroy
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 17:57 |
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What could the point of this possibly be? Was this topic just an attempt to get people to argue with eachother?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 12:46 |
manofmystery wrote:
None of which matters if you don't consider their music all that special ("all that special" doesn't mean bad, it means not all that special).
Yes it matters, you want to know why?
Because they got nothing for free, they earned all the respect they got, and that means something in my book.
Seven straight good albums is something few bands can achieve.
Your spirited defense makes my point that they are overrated for me; first you list all the bands problems (which really don't matter to me, as I stated above, this is about music), then you go ahead and list everything that makes the band overrated.
Why overrated? Because despite the vast majority of the people, (some of them real experts) love the band and you don't like them?
Is your opinion more valuable than our's?
This isn't about me or who I think is more special, this is about a band with more praise being heaped down upon them here than any band could ever live up to. Don't you think it might be a little excessive?
Have you ever thought they are praised because they were good?
Again, why if millions love the band anfd YOU hate it, they MUST be overrated?
Have you ever toughtt you could bne the one wrong?
Ridiculous Peter Gabriel costumes and vocals seem to be what seperates them from others in their era so it seems to be image that lifts them to hights undeserved by any band.
Hardly anybody who loves Genesis today, has seen Peter costumes except for photos, people loves all the other big bands for the albums, DVD'S with images of their concerts.
As a gfact I loved Genesis exclusievely for their albums, because until the late 90's, I had never seen a Peter gabriel era concert on VHS or DVD, and a friend sent me a copy of the excellent Belgium TV show (In which Peter uses no costume BTW).
People love Genesis for the music, because before the era of bad quality bootleg DVD's, NOBODY WHO WASN'T PRESENT ON A CONCERT, HAD SEEN THE COSTUMES.
Gabriel is not a God, he is musician with a poor voice and silly onstage behavior.
Well Pal, I have seen him yesterday at the age of 57 in a place where hardly 20% of the 10,000 souls who went were progheads, and all were impressed wuith his excellent performance and solid vocals, maybe they are also wrong and you are right????
The scorn given in prog circles to anyone that merely suggests that Genesis might be any less than pure musical ambrosia means to me that the line between the honest judgement of their music and an obediant group mentality has been crossed (yes, they are the obama of prog  ).
By the contrary, appart from ELP, Genesis is the pioneer band that receives most critics fropm the members, Micky has done it hundred's of times, and people has never said anytrhing to him, we debated, argued, disagreed, but his o`pinions were always respected.
If you talk about Progger...Wekl a guy who comes and says Yes is the bast and Genesis is the worst because I say, can't expect less than rejection.
The point is: No band is as good as Genesis is made out to be by those in the prog world and they are not above having that said about them.
Isn't good a subjective word?
Isn't a band as good as the people sees them?
Don't you represent the infimouis minority of the Progressive Rock fans abnd experts? Why must you be right and all of us wrong?
Iván |
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 21 2009 at 12:51
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progrules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 14 2007
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 958
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 07:02 |
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
progrules wrote:
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
Oh it is so much easier to get people to hate than to love.
Here's my list.
Pink Floyd
Kansas
Gentle Giant
Van der Graaf Generator
Harmonium
Banco del Mutuo Succorso
Special honorary mention to Magma, as our Magmites tend to go way over the top. |
I join you for this list. And add King Crimson. But that has also to do with Raff her good point: it's not (just) about overrated, I don't like them either. And I also add The Beatles. Floyd's ok though, aren't they ?  |
I listed 3 bands that I detest, 2 that I'm lukewarm about, and 2 that I like. Figure out for yourself which is which.  |
I hope it's not the first two you detest  . I would go for third and fourth. But I can't look inside your head so it's a tough challenge  .
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A day without prog is a wasted day
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
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Location: United States
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Points: 2755
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 05:02 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
manofmystery wrote:
could go all day on overrated bands but I'll just go with prog's biggest:
Genesis - unless you like playing dress up I don't see what makes them worthy of such fawning praise and such high ratings. |
I honestly laugh when I read that genesis is overrated...Why?
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Ivan takes his love of Genesis far too seriously. Yet I agree with him. The only way you can claim that Genesis is overrated is if you claim that it is the best band ever instead of taking it's rightful place in the bottom half of a top five. And even that is a bit of a stretch.
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ghost_of_morphy
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 04:59 |
progrules wrote:
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
Oh it is so much easier to get people to hate than to love.
Here's my list.
Pink Floyd
Kansas
Gentle Giant
Van der Graaf Generator
Harmonium
Banco del Mutuo Succorso
Special honorary mention to Magma, as our Magmites tend to go way over the top. |
I join you for this list. And add King Crimson. But that has also to do with Raff her good point: it's not (just) about overrated, I don't like them either. And I also add The Beatles. Floyd's ok though, aren't they ? |
I listed 3 bands that I detest, 2 that I'm lukewarm about, and 2 that I like. Figure out for yourself which is which.
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progrules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 14 2007
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 958
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 03:41 |
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
Oh it is so much easier to get people to hate than to love.
Here's my list.
Pink Floyd
Kansas
Gentle Giant
Van der Graaf Generator
Harmonium
Banco del Mutuo Succorso
Special honorary mention to Magma, as our Magmites tend to go way over the top. |
I join you for this list. And add King Crimson. But that has also to do with Raff her good point: it's not (just) about overrated, I don't like them either. And I also add The Beatles. Floyd's ok though, aren't they ?
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A day without prog is a wasted day
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Toaster Mantis
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Location: Denmark
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 03:16 |
Keltic wrote:
Toaster Mantis wrote:
You know what's funny? That I actually did some attempt at thinking up a way to find out how objectively good music is, as a response to you arguing that it's all subjective, and you didn't even present a counter-argument beyond "too long, didn't read". Then again, I might just have worded myself in a way that's hard to understand... I'll explain what I meant later in the weekend because I have a lot of things to do right now.
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LOL Toaster, my old son - you're some guy ! 
Don't you get it ? There is NO counter argument. Musical taste is in the ear of the beholder; therefore ALL subjective. You can search from now to doomsday to prove your theory that somehow objectivity enters the equation. You'll still be searching when Amy Winehouse enters rehab for 800th time many years down the line.
Nevertheless, I look forward to your end of weekend explanation. Can't wait - should be a corker. |
Okay, okay, let me try: We can agree that the purpose of music, as with all art, is self-expression on part of the artist, right? Now, what good music is supposed to express and the exact way it's supposed to do so, that is subjective. However, how good it is at expressing something using a specific style, I think that can be judged objectively by people who are familiar with the style in question and its tropes and conventions (which are never ends in themselves, only means to an end which is what the musician is trying to express) because they know how those aesthetic elements are best used. Okay, yeah, it is subjective to the genre and fans of it, I'll admit that much, but it is somewhat objective within the genre's parametre. This principle goes in general for all art, not just music.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Henry Plainview
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Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
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Points: 16715
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 02:11 |
Why does a nerd need a girlfriend? Is not the sadness part of some deeper issue?
I'm just curious why the default assumption, even though it's an assumption that is not entirely serious, is that a relationship will make things better. Is attacking someone else as actually just desperately craving human contact a reflection of our own personal insecurities, or the truth? And what is love?
But everyone else clearly would rather talk about Genesis and Metallica.
I like the juxtaposition of this post and my signature.
Edited by Henry Plainview - March 21 2009 at 02:13
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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rogerthat
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Posted: March 20 2009 at 23:59 |
AlbertMond wrote:
Again, if a band has no fans, it cannot be overrated. The band can suck, but if nobody expresses a positive opinion about it whatsoever there's no chance in heck that it can be overrated.
Popularity is inseperable from the concept of overrating for this reason. I never once said it was the only aspect of being overrated, but it's essential to it. |
It would only be inseperable IF the many fans also called them best, better, something like that. If they say they simply like their music, where's the question of overrating? Do Britney Spears fans say she's the best singer ever? If you showed them a better singer, they'll say, "I don't care, I still LIKE Britney." I am not saying that fans never ever talk up a band but it's not as universal as some people would think.
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AlbertMond
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Posted: March 20 2009 at 23:53 |
rogerthat wrote:
No, no and no, prove to me the relation between getting big and overrated. Is commercial success or lack of it the measure of overrating, or shall we say, the sole measure? Better and more original bands did not get as big as Slayer, yes, agreed, Watchtower for starters. So? Not fair to Watchtower? Why, are they in it only for the money then?  Now I will give you one good reason why Slayer could be said to be overrated. RIB is widely proclaimed as the best thrash metal album of all time and I don't agree, so I think it is overrated and since most people carry forward this assertion to also call Slayer the best thrash metal band, I think Slayer is overrated. See, I respect an opinion! And not just mine! I hope this brings out the distinction between popularity and the rating of quality, the two things are not at all inseperable contrary to popular - oops, the dreaded word again! - perception. |
Again, if a band has no fans, it cannot be overrated. The band can suck, but if nobody expresses a positive opinion about it whatsoever there's no chance in heck that it can be overrated.
Popularity is inseperable from the concept of overrating for this reason. I never once said it was the only aspect of being overrated, but it's essential to it.
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Promotion so blatant that it's sad:
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rogerthat
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Posted: March 20 2009 at 23:51 |
AlbertMond wrote:
And everybody knows old stuff is never still bad stuff.
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rogerthat
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Posted: March 20 2009 at 23:49 |
AlbertMond wrote:
You very obviously implied that you were saying no bands were overrated. This thread is about overrated bands, and if you don't believe any are overrated, you have no business being here. It wasn't anger, it was a matter-of-fact request that you leave. Yes. A band has to have some fans to be overrated. If nobody rates it, it can't be over rated. What you're saying is essentially "That's your opinion", which is an inherently pointless statement as most everything anyone ever says is their opinion. Good job pointing out the obvious, Sherlock. |
How do you know what I obviously implied or didn't, do you like psych-read across thousands of miles, the horror!  Yes, a band has to have some fans to be rated, agreed, but that doesn't necessarily follow that only popular bands have to be overrated and yet I have not seen evidence pointing in any other direction. I am not saying,"That's just your opinion" or anything of the sort, I am asking you to disprove that people simply mention popular bands they don't like as overrated because how exactly does one determine how much popularity is commensurate to quality of the music, people don't say, "This is the best band or that is the best band", they say,"This is my favourite band or I like this band", how does it make a band overrated if many people LIKE a band, there's nothing to suggest that people like only the best bands in the world.
AlbertMond wrote:
Yeah. They borrowed a Mustaine riff. Actually, I think they used the song when he was in the band, unless you're talking about a different one. |
There are some songs to which Mustaine is given credit on KEA and RTL but some people - usually Megadeth fans - claim even upto MOP, they were stealing EVERYTHING from what they did with Mustaine.
AlbertMond wrote:
To how overrated a band is? Yes, it is relevant. Again, you're implying that a band that gets big is inherently worthy of getting big. Your argument can be used for any band of any genre, and since music is an eye-of-the-beholder thing, your argument is irrelevant to this subject. I know plenty of bands better and more original than Slayer which haven't gotten as big. Before you again redundantly spout "That's your opinion!" like some sort of broken record (or Reign in Blood), I will again say that there are plenty of popular bands I like. |
No, no and no, prove to me the relation between getting big and overrated. Is commercial success or lack of it the measure of overrating, or shall we say, the sole measure? Better and more original bands did not get as big as Slayer, yes, agreed, Watchtower for starters. So? Not fair to Watchtower? Why, are they in it only for the money then? Now I will give you one good reason why Slayer could be said to be overrated. RIB is widely proclaimed as the best thrash metal album of all time and I don't agree, so I think it is overrated and since most people carry forward this assertion to also call Slayer the best thrash metal band, I think Slayer is overrated. See, I respect an opinion! And not just mine! I hope this brings out the distinction between popularity and the rating of quality, the two things are not at all inseperable contrary to popular - oops, the dreaded word again! - perception.
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AlbertMond
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Posted: March 20 2009 at 23:34 |
rogerthat wrote:
AlbertMond wrote:
So you're here to say that no bands are overrated. Seriously. Get out of this thread, please. |
I didn't say that, just show me some basis other than that the band is popular for calling them overrated. By the way, in your bout of - god knows directed at what! - aggression, you ended up proving my point! I say show me a band that's not popular and is called overrated and you say "get out of this thread" ,s o bingo! Only popular bands are overrated and so people compile lists of bands they don't like that are popular and call them overrated. You can say for the fourth time that that's not what you are saying, but then what exactly do you want to say, I am all ears. |
You very obviously implied that you were saying no bands were overrated. This thread is about overrated bands, and if you don't believe any are overrated, you have no business being here. It wasn't anger, it was a matter-of-fact request that you leave. Yes. A band has to have some fans to be overrated. If nobody rates it, it can't be over rated. What you're saying is essentially "That's your opinion", which is an inherently pointless statement as most everything anyone ever says is their opinion. Good job pointing out the obvious, Sherlock.
AlbertMond wrote:
It's a casual exaggeration. Honestly, I used to like Slayer. The more I listen to them, the less I like them, as it all sounds the same. There are plenty of people, even in the Metal community, who agree with me. |
rogerthat wrote:
k, that's more like an opinion, fair enough. Although, that there are plenty of people who agree with you doesn't necessarily confer validity on it, |
O rly, now? You don't say.
rogerthat wrote:
because there are plenty still who can't stop dissing Metallca for selling out, an event that happened 18 or so years ago. |
And everybody knows old stuff is never still bad stuff.
rogerthat wrote:
Or better yet, who still can't stop accusing Metallica of stealing from Mustaine, an "alleged" event that happened 25 years ago. |
Yeah. They borrowed a Mustaine riff. Actually, I think they used the song when he was in the band, unless you're talking about a different one.
rogerthat wrote:
You think there are better bands out there, fine, and I agree with that myself, but how many people like a band and what they did or did not do in their commercial phase is not very relevant. |
To how overrated a band is? Yes, it is relevant. Again, you're implying that a band that gets big is inherently worthy of getting big. Your argument can be used for any band of any genre, and since music is an eye-of-the-beholder thing, your argument is irrelevant to this subject. I know plenty of bands better and more original than Slayer which haven't gotten as big. Before you again redundantly spout "That's your opinion!" like some sort of broken record (or Reign in Blood), I will again say that there are plenty of popular bands I like.
Edited by AlbertMond - March 20 2009 at 23:36
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Promotion so blatant that it's sad:
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: March 20 2009 at 23:11 |
AlbertMond wrote:
I wasn't relating each of those bands to eachother by much in the first place other than as Extreme Metals.
If you want to get deep into genres, Venom's Blackened Thrash, and Celtic Frost is Avant-Garde Metal, Thrash Metal, and (later) Gothic Metal. Really, quit trying. Your emoticons have more value here than your actual words. |
But that's the point: how would you basically relate extreme metal bands when on the topic of thrash metal?  Maybe it makes a lot of sense to you but it's very confusing for me.
AlbertMond wrote:
So you're here to say that no bands are overrated. Seriously. Get out of this thread, please. |
I didn't say that, just show me some basis other than that the band is popular for calling them overrated. By the way, in your bout of - god knows directed at what! - aggression, you ended up proving my point! I say show me a band that's not popular and is called overrated and you say "get out of this thread" ,s o bingo! Only popular bands are overrated and so people compile lists of bands they don't like that are popular and call them overrated. You can say for the fourth time that that's not what you are saying, but then what exactly do you want to say, I am all ears.
AlbertMond wrote:
It's a casual exaggeration. Honestly, I used to like Slayer. The more I listen to them, the less I like them, as it all sounds the same. There are plenty of people, even in the Metal community, who agree with me. |
Ok, that's more like an opinion, fair enough. Although, that there are plenty of people who agree with you doesn't necessarily confer validity on it, because there are plenty still who can't stop dissing Metallca for selling out, an event that happened 18 or so years ago. Or better yet, who still can't stop accusing Metallica of stealing from Mustaine, an "alleged" event that happened 25 years ago. You think there are better bands out there, fine, and I agree with that myself, but how many people like a band and what they did or did not do in their commercial phase is not very relevant.
Edited by rogerthat - March 20 2009 at 23:12
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AlbertMond
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 27 2008
Location: Namibia
Status: Offline
Points: 139
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Posted: March 20 2009 at 22:53 |
rogerthat wrote:
AlbertMond wrote:
Because Black Metal was heavily influenced by Thrash, and is considered an "extreme metal". Seriously, quit trying. |
Now what's AN extreme metal, hmmm.... anyway, care to tell me what exactly makes Heathen and Immortal so similar sounding? I know very well that black metal was influenced by thrash metal, but they are widely divergent sub genres and not everybody who likes one likes the other. What you said is like suggesting that one can compare ELP and Camel just because both were influenced by ITCOCK.  |
I wasn't relating each of those bands to eachother by much in the first place other than as Extreme Metals.
If you want to get deep into genres, Venom's Blackened Thrash, and Celtic Frost is Avant-Garde Metal, Thrash Metal, and (later) Gothic Metal. Really, quit trying. Your emoticons have more value here than your actual words.
AlbertMond wrote:
The point of posting about overrated bands is that they're overrated. Slayer is overrated. |
rogerthat wrote:
Yes, yes, I know, I have been asking this question for some time in this thread, do you call a band overrated just because they are popular. |
I've said 'no' at least three times. Quit bloody asking it.
rogerthat wrote:
Show me a band that's generally considered overrated and yet have no popularity within even niche audiences like prog fans or extreme metal fans. Overrating is basically the business of getting pissed off that some people like a band that you don't. |
So you're here to say that no bands are overrated. Seriously. Get out of this thread, please.
AlbertMond wrote:
The title of the thread has 'opinionated' in it. Also, "you're not a fan, so you can't tell" is not a real argument, so your 'point' is no more valid than mine. |
rogerthat wrote:
Of course I have an argument because unless made entirely in jest, the allegation that Slayer have only two songs - Raining Blood and everything else - is serious and is just begging to be objected to. |
It's a casual exaggeration. Honestly, I used to like Slayer. The more I listen to them, the less I like them, as it all sounds the same. There are plenty of people, even in the Metal community, who agree with me.
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Promotion so blatant that it's sad:
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: March 20 2009 at 22:46 |
AlbertMond wrote:
Because Black Metal was heavily influenced by Thrash, and is considered an "extreme metal". Seriously, quit trying. |
Now what's AN extreme metal, hmmm.... anyway, care to tell me what exactly makes Heathen and Immortal so similar sounding? I know very well that black metal was influenced by thrash metal, but they are widely divergent sub genres and not everybody who likes one likes the other. What you said is like suggesting that one can compare ELP and Camel just because both were influenced by ITCOCK.
AlbertMond wrote:
The point of posting about overrated bands is that they're overrated. Slayer is overrated. |
Yes, yes, I know, I have been asking this question for some time in this thread, do you call a band overrated just because they are popular. Show me a band that's generally considered overrated and yet have no popularity within even niche audiences like prog fans or extreme metal fans. Overrating is basically the business of getting pissed off that some people like a band that you don't.
AlbertMond wrote:
The title of the thread has 'opinionated' in it. Also, "you're not a fan, so you can't tell" is not a real argument, so your 'point' is no more valid than mine. |
Of course I have an argument because unless made entirely in jest, the allegation that Slayer have only two songs - Raining Blood and everything else - is serious and is just begging to be objected to.
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Overrated Bands (Opininonated!)
