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Henry Plainview 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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 Posted: March 21 2009 at 02:11 |
Why does a nerd need a girlfriend? Is not the sadness part of some deeper issue?
I'm just curious why the default assumption, even though it's an assumption that is not entirely serious, is that a relationship will make things better. Is attacking someone else as actually just desperately craving human contact a reflection of our own personal insecurities, or the truth? And what is love?
But everyone else clearly would rather talk about Genesis and Metallica.
I like the juxtaposition of this post and my signature.
Edited by Henry Plainview - March 21 2009 at 02:13
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 5898
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 03:16 |
 Keltic wrote:
Toaster Mantis wrote:
You know what's funny? That I actually did some attempt at thinking up a way to find out how objectively good music is, as a response to you arguing that it's all subjective, and you didn't even present a counter-argument beyond "too long, didn't read". Then again, I might just have worded myself in a way that's hard to understand... I'll explain what I meant later in the weekend because I have a lot of things to do right now.
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LOL Toaster, my old son - you're some guy ! 
Don't you get it ? There is NO counter argument. Musical taste is in the ear of the beholder; therefore ALL subjective. You can search from now to doomsday to prove your theory that somehow objectivity enters the equation. You'll still be searching when Amy Winehouse enters rehab for 800th time many years down the line.
Nevertheless, I look forward to your end of weekend explanation. Can't wait - should be a corker.  |
Okay, okay, let me try: We can agree that the purpose of music, as with all art, is self-expression on part of the artist, right? Now, what good music is supposed to express and the exact way it's supposed to do so, that is subjective. However, how good it is at expressing something using a specific style, I think that can be judged objectively by people who are familiar with the style in question and its tropes and conventions (which are never ends in themselves, only means to an end which is what the musician is trying to express) because they know how those aesthetic elements are best used. Okay, yeah, it is subjective to the genre and fans of it, I'll admit that much, but it is somewhat objective within the genre's parametre. This principle goes in general for all art, not just music.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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progrules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 14 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 958
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 03:41 |
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
Oh it is so much easier to get people to hate than to love.
Here's my list.
Pink Floyd
Kansas
Gentle Giant
Van der Graaf Generator
Harmonium
Banco del Mutuo Succorso
Special honorary mention to Magma, as our Magmites tend to go way over the top. |
I join you for this list. And add King Crimson. But that has also to do with Raff her good point: it's not (just) about overrated, I don't like them either. And I also add The Beatles. Floyd's ok though, aren't they ? 
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A day without prog is a wasted day
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 04:59 |
progrules wrote:
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
Oh it is so much easier to get people to hate than to love.
Here's my list.
Pink Floyd
Kansas
Gentle Giant
Van der Graaf Generator
Harmonium
Banco del Mutuo Succorso
Special honorary mention to Magma, as our Magmites tend to go way over the top. |
I join you for this list. And add King Crimson. But that has also to do with Raff her good point: it's not (just) about overrated, I don't like them either. And I also add The Beatles. Floyd's ok though, aren't they ? |
I listed 3 bands that I detest, 2 that I'm lukewarm about, and 2 that I like. Figure out for yourself which is which. 
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 05:02 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
manofmystery wrote:
could go all day on overrated bands but I'll just go with prog's biggest:
Genesis - unless you like playing dress up I don't see what makes them worthy of such fawning praise and such high ratings. |
I honestly laugh when I read that genesis is overrated...Why?
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Ivan takes his love of Genesis far too seriously. Yet I agree with him. The only way you can claim that Genesis is overrated is if you claim that it is the best band ever instead of taking it's rightful place in the bottom half of a top five. And even that is a bit of a stretch.
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progrules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 14 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 958
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 07:02 |
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
progrules wrote:
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
Oh it is so much easier to get people to hate than to love.
Here's my list.
Pink Floyd
Kansas
Gentle Giant
Van der Graaf Generator
Harmonium
Banco del Mutuo Succorso
Special honorary mention to Magma, as our Magmites tend to go way over the top. |
I join you for this list. And add King Crimson. But that has also to do with Raff her good point: it's not (just) about overrated, I don't like them either. And I also add The Beatles. Floyd's ok though, aren't they ? |
I listed 3 bands that I detest, 2 that I'm lukewarm about, and 2 that I like. Figure out for yourself which is which. |
I hope it's not the first two you detest . I would go for third and fourth. But I can't look inside your head so it's a tough challenge  .
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A day without prog is a wasted day
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 12:46 |
manofmystery wrote:
None of which matters if you don't consider their music all that special ("all that special" doesn't mean bad, it means not all that special).
Yes it matters, you want to know why?
Because they got nothing for free, they earned all the respect they got, and that means something in my book.
Seven straight good albums is something few bands can achieve.
Your spirited defense makes my point that they are overrated for me; first you list all the bands problems (which really don't matter to me, as I stated above, this is about music), then you go ahead and list everything that makes the band overrated.
Why overrated? Because despite the vast majority of the people, (some of them real experts) love the band and you don't like them?
Is your opinion more valuable than our's?
This isn't about me or who I think is more special, this is about a band with more praise being heaped down upon them here than any band could ever live up to. Don't you think it might be a little excessive?
Have you ever thought they are praised because they were good?
Again, why if millions love the band anfd YOU hate it, they MUST be overrated?
Have you ever toughtt you could bne the one wrong?
Ridiculous Peter Gabriel costumes and vocals seem to be what seperates them from others in their era so it seems to be image that lifts them to hights undeserved by any band.
Hardly anybody who loves Genesis today, has seen Peter costumes except for photos, people loves all the other big bands for the albums, DVD'S with images of their concerts.
As a gfact I loved Genesis exclusievely for their albums, because until the late 90's, I had never seen a Peter gabriel era concert on VHS or DVD, and a friend sent me a copy of the excellent Belgium TV show (In which Peter uses no costume BTW).
People love Genesis for the music, because before the era of bad quality bootleg DVD's, NOBODY WHO WASN'T PRESENT ON A CONCERT, HAD SEEN THE COSTUMES.
Gabriel is not a God, he is musician with a poor voice and silly onstage behavior.
Well Pal, I have seen him yesterday at the age of 57 in a place where hardly 20% of the 10,000 souls who went were progheads, and all were impressed wuith his excellent performance and solid vocals, maybe they are also wrong and you are right????
The scorn given in prog circles to anyone that merely suggests that Genesis might be any less than pure musical ambrosia means to me that the line between the honest judgement of their music and an obediant group mentality has been crossed (yes, they are the obama of prog  ).
By the contrary, appart from ELP, Genesis is the pioneer band that receives most critics fropm the members, Micky has done it hundred's of times, and people has never said anytrhing to him, we debated, argued, disagreed, but his o`pinions were always respected.
If you talk about Progger...Wekl a guy who comes and says Yes is the bast and Genesis is the worst because I say, can't expect less than rejection.
The point is: No band is as good as Genesis is made out to be by those in the prog world and they are not above having that said about them.
Isn't good a subjective word?
Isn't a band as good as the people sees them?
Don't you represent the infimouis minority of the Progressive Rock fans abnd experts? Why must you be right and all of us wrong?
Iván |
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 21 2009 at 12:51
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himtroy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1601
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 17:57 |
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What could the point of this possibly be? Was this topic just an attempt to get people to argue with eachother?
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 20:20 |
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LOL. Anything that gets people expressing themselves in socially acceptable ways is welcome. Even if it provokes a rainbow quotefest from Ivan!
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ten years after
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1008
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 21:43 |
The term over-rated is interpreted rather strangely at times. To say that you find a band over-rated doesn't have to mean you don't like them, does it?
I suppose a majority of us here would put Genesis in the top ten prog bands. Anyone who placed Genesis at, say, number 20 would be entitled to say they were over-rated.
Going by the posts on this forum i would say Camel, Caravan and Jethro Tull are over-rated. Doesn't mean i don't like them just that i like them significantly less than the average forummer.
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himtroy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1601
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 21:47 |
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Another thing is, that while us big prog fans might find certain people overrated, you go to the average person, and they won't even know who they are( Camel, Gong, Caravan, a lot of them). So lets see this for what it really is, it's people on this board saying who they're SICK OF HEARING ABOUT. IE: Genesis, for the love of god, it's every other topic!
Edited by himtroy - March 21 2009 at 21:50
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ten years after
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1008
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 22:19 |
himtroy wrote:
Another thing is, that while us big prog fans might find certain people overrated, you go to the average person, and they won't even know who they are( Camel, Gong, Caravan, a lot of them). |
A good point.
If i'm talking to a prog fan I would say that i think Camel are over-rated. If i was discussing Camel with anyone else I would have to say that they were drastically under-rated since they are pretty good and most people will never even have heard of them.
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 22:45 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
manofmystery wrote:
None of which matters if you don't consider their music all that special ("all that special" doesn't mean bad, it means not all that special).
Yes it matters, you want to know why?
Because they got nothing for free, they earned all the respect they got, and that means something in my book.
Seven straight good albums is something few bands can achieve.
Your spirited defense makes my point that they are overrated for me; first you list all the bands problems (which really don't matter to me, as I stated above, this is about music), then you go ahead and list everything that makes the band overrated.
Why overrated? Because despite the vast majority of the people, (some of them real experts) love the band and you don't like them?
Is your opinion more valuable than our's?
This isn't about me or who I think is more special, this is about a band with more praise being heaped down upon them here than any band could ever live up to. Don't you think it might be a little excessive?
Have you ever thought they are praised because they were good?
Again, why if millions love the band anfd YOU hate it, they MUST be overrated?
Have you ever toughtt you could bne the one wrong?
Ridiculous Peter Gabriel costumes and vocals seem to be what seperates them from others in their era so it seems to be image that lifts them to hights undeserved by any band.
Hardly anybody who loves Genesis today, has seen Peter costumes except for photos, people loves all the other big bands for the albums, DVD'S with images of their concerts.
As a gfact I loved Genesis exclusievely for their albums, because until the late 90's, I had never seen a Peter gabriel era concert on VHS or DVD, and a friend sent me a copy of the excellent Belgium TV show (In which Peter uses no costume BTW).
People love Genesis for the music, because before the era of bad quality bootleg DVD's, NOBODY WHO WASN'T PRESENT ON A CONCERT, HAD SEEN THE COSTUMES.
Gabriel is not a God, he is musician with a poor voice and silly onstage behavior.
Well Pal, I have seen him yesterday at the age of 57 in a place where hardly 20% of the 10,000 souls who went were progheads, and all were impressed wuith his excellent performance and solid vocals, maybe they are also wrong and you are right????
The scorn given in prog circles to anyone that merely suggests that Genesis might be any less than pure musical ambrosia means to me that the line between the honest judgement of their music and an obediant group mentality has been crossed (yes, they are the obama of prog ).
By the contrary, appart from ELP, Genesis is the pioneer band that receives most critics fropm the members, Micky has done it hundred's of times, and people has never said anytrhing to him, we debated, argued, disagreed, but his o`pinions were always respected.
If you talk about Progger...Wekl a guy who comes and says Yes is the bast and Genesis is the worst because I say, can't expect less than rejection.
The point is: No band is as good as Genesis is made out to be by those in the prog world and they are not above having that said about them.
Isn't good a subjective word?
Isn't a band as good as the people sees them?
Don't you represent the infimouis minority of the Progressive Rock fans abnd experts? Why must you be right and all of us wrong?
Iván |
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I never claimed not to represent the minority. How can a band be overrated anyway if they are not loved by the majority?
You still seem to want to make this about me and I guess I'll go ahead and let you because after all (Opininonated!) is included in the title of the thread. But to try to not make this about me one last time: Nothing in existence lives up to the level of praise that most Genesis albums are met with, nothing. This isn't about me not liking their music (I like Nursery Cryme by the way) its about a band being lifted to levels beyond all that is rational.
Isn't a band as good as the people sees them?
You are either saying "to each his own" in which case I fully within my rights to say they are overrated or you are suggesting that everything that is equally as good as its popularity in which case I'd better get those Jonas Brothers tickets after all.
Don't you represent the infimouis minority of the Progressive Rock fans abnd experts?
Again, it would be hard to claim a band is overrated if it was already the majority opinion.
Why must you be right and all of us wrong?
I don't recall ever saying I must be right but what I seem to see you saying is that I must be wrong which sort of speaks to the pressure within the prog world, put on everyone occupying my "minority", to accept Genesis and Peter Gabriel as their lords and savior.
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 Time always wins.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 23:01 |
Give it a rest, I say. Ivan, surely this is not a question of right or wrong, he is entitled to think Genesis are overrated just as you are entitled to think otherwise, consensus opinion does not yet equal fact in music, otherwise, as he said, he had better catch up with Jonas Brothers. In fact, there is no fact in music appreciation, how can a purely sensory - and suggestive, more importantly - impression be deconstructed into cold logic and reason, impossible!
On the other hand, manofmystery is wrong to suggest that the fame Genesis got - and they got precious little of it in the days of Gabriel compared to when they went pop - is all down to Gabriel's play acting. Gabriel's bandmates didn't like it and many Genesis fans don't like it - shock and horror! I think one possible reason for Genesis's popularity is - as Ivan has said before - its influence on neo prog. I cannot comment on this because I am not much experienced in neo prog, but that could be a very good reason. It would possibly explain all the new found love for Trick of the tail and the dismissive opinions on Nursery Cryme that I come across more and more at any rate!  Surely, these fans like a different Genesis from the one I do!  Now as for whether his stage acting is silly, surely that again is in the realm of opinion, it's a bit much that having first disliked it, you assume that that is what everybody raves about in Genesis and then say they are praised beyond reason. Maybe there's something in the music you don't relate to that others do. If you say they really haven't done enough to stand out from peers purely for their music, fair enough, that's a reasonable opinion, though not one that a lot will agree with - which again is fine! - and certainly a plausible reason to consider them overrated.  |
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Jake Kobrin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 20 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1303
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Posted: March 21 2009 at 23:44 |
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I really agree with the Genesis acusation. I own like 6 of their albums and none of them are that amazing to be honest. I do like the band and I have HUGE respect for their impact. BRILLIANT, AMAZING, WONDERFUL, BEST PROG BAND EVER though... no.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 01:06 |
Rogerthat, I believe calling ANY BAND overrated, is a disrespect for their fans, just think what overrated means:
1.- Many people think they are great
2.- Every piece of Prog literature considers them essential
3.- I don't think they are great
4.- All that people's rating is wrong
5.- All the critic is wrong.
6.- My rating is more valuable than the one of that people
7.- So i say they are overrated
As simple as that, this is the reason why I don't use the word overrated.
Overrated threads are a provocation an should be avoided.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 22 2009 at 01:08
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Alberto Muńoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 01:15 |
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I know for some strange reason that Genesis will came to these thread...
Ivan, remember the Don Quijote Quote:
"Ladran Sancho..."
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 01:17 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Rogerthat, I believe calling ANY BAND overrated, is a disrespect for their fans, just think what overrated means:
1.- Many people think they are great
2.- Every piece of Prog literature considers them essential
3.- I don't think they are great
4.- All that people's rating is wrong
5.- All the critic is wrong.
6.- My rating is more valuable than the one of that people
7.- So i say they are overrated
As simple as that, this is the reason why I don't use the word overrated.
Overrated threads are a provocation an should be avoided.
Iván |
I agree with points 1-3, but not really with points 4-7, I don't see how considering a band overrated calls into question the judgment of other fans and critics and experts. The trouble starts when people start to explain why they think the band are overrated, few people are content to leave it at "I don't think they are THAT good/THAT important", most go ahead and give reasons that only provoke a lot of argument.
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Alberto Muńoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 01:30 |
Well i think that everybody have constructed or have his particular definition of Overrated let see: the online dictionary (or tumbaburros as we said in México): http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=overrated Anything that is too much credit and hype. A word which recently has been used liberally as a way of discrediting something without having to give a proper justification, most often when someone finds they have a disliking for a popular phenomenom and is resentful of those who embrace it. Often used by anti-trendies Anything that's given TOO much hype. The type of thing that, if you see it again, you're liable to check your self into a mental institution Being Not nearly as good as they seem to think Not nearly as cool as people think it is. An overly used word by ppl who dont like something. When it reaches the point that something/someone is praised of too much. Either it is rated or appraised too highly. Saying overrated is overrated http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/overrate?view=uk overrate
• verb rate more highly than is deserved. — DERIVATIVES overrated adjective.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 01:36 |
^^^
The second definition in Urbandictionary describes what it normally degenerates into, which I have been talking about for some time in this thread , simply to diss popular bands because you feel resentful of their success vis-a-vis the success of your favourite bands from usually the same scene. But it need not be THAT bad, point no. 4 and 7 could be said to be more appropriate, what the concept of "overrated" ought to be than what it is in practice. Of course, even these concepts of overrating can lead to lot of argument, but eh, the constantly repeating internet phenomenon of calling one's favourite band the best in the world is also so tired and old, it's OK to like bands which may not be the best, it's after all about what you like. |
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Overrated Bands (Opininonated!)
