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BaldJean

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Joined: May 28 2005
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Points: 10387

Posted: March 17 2009 at 10:36

James wrote:

Yes I did feel that way as a child. I have never believed in a deity or followed a religion (and no, Atheism isn't a religion). Yes, my father is also a non-believer and may have swayed me (perhaps sub-consciously) but he certainly did not brainwash me. He never preached his non-beliefs to me. Nobody in my immediate family ever speaks of deities or religion and of course, Jesus and Christianity may have been mentioned at school (I came across an old school book from 1986 of mine earlier today and in it I mention Jesus) but I do not believe I once thought of him as anything more than a fictional character. We had to say prayers and I always had my eyes open and looked around bemused at everyone else. This was when I was aged 8 or 9.

So no, I have always felt that way.

I didn't say atheism is a religion, I said it is a dogma. look up dogma in a dictionary, or let me save you the time and post it here:

1.	a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.

2.	a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.

3.	prescribed doctrine: political dogma.

4.	a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.

wouldn't you agree that definition 4 applies?
as to the brainwashing: that was a reply to Sean; he spoke of brainwashing.
and of course you were influenced by your father and your surroundings, just like everyone else. absolutely nobody grows up uninfluenced by anybody. there was probably only one exception in history, and that was the sad case of Kaspar Hauser

A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 11:24

BaldJean wrote:

Sean, your atheism is as much of a dogma as any religion. and to arrive at your atheism you were just as "brainwashed" as religious people.
you also make the same mistake several other people made: you confuse the teachings of a religion with the belief in the existence of God. it is totally possible to believe in a deity without being member of any religion

Nope!! There is no written rules or laws to tell you what you have to think in atheism, since there is nothing to believe in.

I don't think you're able to grasp this: Atheism is not a belief, a religion a dogma and a doctrine. There is no creator, period. You don't read books to know there is no creator >>> I've never seen any, nor have I looked for them >>> although I'm sure there must be some.

And I don't make the mistake of confusing your form of paganism (no insult intended, I assure you >> I even call myself a pagan to gntly ruffle christian's feathers) with some kind of deity that replaces the god (s).

Actually I prefer a certain primary sort of paganism that worshipped females deities (since they gave life) rather than all of those monotheism that have kidnapped the gods by the males and almost systematically exclude females from the clergies in order to "control" them better.

BaldJean wrote:

Spammer21 wrote:

BaldJean wrote:

James wrote:

Jean, I feel somewhat offended by the fact you say I've been "brainwashed". I'm also confused as to how that is so?

Nobody told me there isn't a God. I have always felt that way. Does that mean I've brainwashed myself?

James, it was not I who started on "brainwashing", it was Sean; I just answered to him.
as to "I have always felt that way": sorry, but I do not believe that. you may have felt like that for a long time, but did you feel like that as a kid too?
as to "nobody told me there is no God": I don't quite buy that either. did the thought "there is no God" just arrive in your head all by itself? or was it not rather that you came to the conclusion because of books you read, experiences you had and whatever else?

Everyone is born an atheist. You have to be taught to believe.

I sincerely doubt that, and there is no proof for it whatever. If everyone was born an atheist, why did religions come up in the first place? you won't find a single culture without religion

Jean, you've probly been born from religious parents, whether strongly or weaker practicing) so you were brought up from day one into this christian athmosphere that permeated through your skin, probably as you were still breastfeeding from your mom, than later being gently scolded using god's 10 commendments as rules and such things. >>> the brainwashing words might sound brutal, but it is very insiduously done.

I lived in a house without crosses or crucifixes or any "reminder of god" artefacts in the house and when scolded for something I did wrong, I either received a slap or got some kind of atheist-sermon.

The only reason why I was submitted to church was through school (this was gentle and not obligatory as in the 60's & 70's, even catholic schools were cool on this) and my grandparents (very much practicing catholics) and the pressures they put on my parents, but they never rejected their grandchildren or try to force their beliefs on us.

As for your last comment, religion was invented in answering (or trying to) your fears and superstitions. It quickly became a power tool, since the "shaman" could tell anyone why the volcano was acting up >>> I t's because Randy took something that belonged to my cousin Rudolph and the Volcano will keep acting up until Randy gives it back, (plus a penalty for forgiveness). This happened in all civilzation were the control of superstitions was a (sometimes good) counterweight to brute force by the "kings".

Edited by Sean Trane - March 17 2009 at 11:32

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Finnforest View Drop Down

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 11:45

Spammer21 wrote:

BaldJean wrote:

Everyone is born an atheist. You have to be taught to believe.

Really quite true. The fact is that most people (not all of course), but MOST people simply are whatever faith Mommy and Daddy were. It becomes ingrained in their childhood and they accept it is fact.

Whether it's true or not, most folks don't bother to attempt to determine it on their own, they simply choose to believe what another person has told them. Which makes it all the more scary when someone says they have 100% belief, no doubt, no honest skepticism whatsover. Just tell me what to believe Dad, and I'm there for life.

...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 11:59

Sean Trane wrote:

Nope!! There is no written rules or laws to tell you what you have to think in atheism, since there is nothing to believe in.

What about believing in the non-existence of God? Tongue

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 12:00

The incredible thing is tghat if somebody says for example "Brain Salad Surgery is Bull Sh!t (I don't think that, I rted it with 5 stars)", all the fans make a scandal, even the administrators call you to respect the tastes of the rest of the people.

But if somebody attacks your deepest and more transcendental beliefe, nothing happens, buy the contrary, you are called almost afanatic.

Have you read the guideliines?

1. No Vulgarity, profanity or bigotry. We ask all members to refrain from using "foul language." Profanity - the deliberate denigration of another person's belief, will not be tolerated. Our membership is global, and thus represents a host of spiritual and religious beliefs. Given this, profanity is tantamount to personal attack (see next entry). Likewise, there is no place in this forum for bigotry (this includes religious bigotry, racism, and sexual discrimination) which are also considered to be personal attacks.
We are committed to not censoring messages or opinions, but this is a moderated forum. We simply want to maintain the spirit of an open, interactive discussion without offending any of the participants.
Any deliberate and conscious attempt to "circumvent" or ignore this guideline will be seen as grounds for a warning to be issued, and may result in ejection from the site.

http://www.progarchives.com/Forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13083

Isn't calling your religious beliefs BULL SH!T a deliberate denigration?

The rules iof the site are there, buit nobody except Jean who don't share my faith support this.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 17 2009 at 12:07

Ricochet

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 12:02

Finnforest wrote:

Spammer21 wrote:

Everyone is born an atheist. You have to be taught to believe.

Really quite true.

Really quite false. Just as you aren't born being a religious person, you aren't born being a firm non-religious person, either. Since being an atheist means not believing that a God exists, infants up to a certain age don't even bear the knowledge of a God, let alone form a proper atheistic conception.

And I'm surprised that parents guiding you, religiously speaking, is a problem, since parents normally guide children in everything, up to a certain point, when the child finally forms takes an independent own moral, logical and even religious path, resembling or not what parents and other people have offered.

Edited by Ricochet - March 17 2009 at 12:05

Finnforest View Drop Down

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 12:09

It's very true Rico, you're just distorting it. A person who is born has no religious belief inherant. It is taught. I understand you consider non-belief a religion.

Edited by Finnforest - March 17 2009 at 12:10

...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"

BaldJean

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Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
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Points: 10387

Posted: March 17 2009 at 12:14

Finnforest wrote:

It's very true Rico, you're just distorting it. A person who is born has no religious belief inherant. It is taught. I understand you consider non-belief a religion.

it is not as simple as that, else anthropologists would not be discussing whether religious feelings are an inherited trait or have to be learned

A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 12:14

Sean Trane wrote:

Nope!! There is no written rules or laws to tell you what you have to think in atheism, since there is nothing to believe in.

Are you sure???????

Who We Are

1) Atheism is living one's life without the supernatural.

2) Every human being is entitled to freedom of conscience, which requires absolute state neutrality towards religion and nonreligion and governmental maintenance of inviolate human rights. Thus, we oppose any law requiring or forbidding the personal observance of religion.

3) Scientific inquiry has proved the best process for improving the physical welfare of humankind and should be pursued with vigor and without compromise throughout the world.

4) Human compassion and empathy are crucial to improving the human condition.

5) Reason and cooperation are essential to meeting the challenges that confront humankind.

6) We are responsible for humane interaction with other animals and for the preservation of our habitable planet.

7) Humanistic atheists eschew concepts that fragment humanity into conflicting groups; rather, we work toward fostering cooperative diversity.

We Are Not

An atheist is anyone who has no belief in any god, whether the god is called Jehovah, Satan, Vishnu, Allah, Loki, Zeus, or any other name. Therefore, atheists hold many varieties of social and political philosophies. There is no atheist dogma, and the Atheist Alliance International has no catechism. However, most of us are atheists because we are rationalists. That means we look for the best evidence in deciding what to believe. Of course, we don’t believe in such ideas as miracles, “intelligent” design, and “scientific” creationism. There are also popular notions which are secular and which a few vocal atheists may believe, but which have no supporting evidence. They are extremely unpopular among the great majority of atheists-rationalists. They include:

The appearance of “ghosts” or other spirits of the dead.
Reincarnation of human “souls.”
The denial of established historical events, such as the Nazi mass murder of Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, and atheists during World War II.
Astrology of any origin.

http://www.atheistalliance.org/aai/index.php

This looks as the seven Commandments and the 4 capital sins of Atheism, written by an organization who is douing Atheist evangelism.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 17 2009 at 12:16

Ricochet

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 12:20

Finnforest wrote:

It's very true Rico, you're just distorting it. A person who is born has no religious belief inherant. It is taught. I understand you consider non-belief a religion.

Also, I never said it was "a problem" about people learning from their parents. You came up with that. I only said it was often the case.

Ah, yes, words were apparently distorted this whole thread.

I incidentally think that non-belief could be a form of religion, dogma or even belief, mostly thinking about how Mircea Eliade settled this: there is the homo religiosus, who has his own spiritual universe, who supports the sacred and the transcendental, and the homo areligiosus, who denies and refusing the sacred, and thinks the world will be purified when the transcendental will be demoted as an illusion. BUT, here says Eliade, homo areligiosus's conduct derives from an initial homo religiosus condition, and can be itself considered a form of belief.

Ultimately what I currently believe in is exactly this: something sacred, something transcendent, and even a certain Creator. A nothingness' "afterlife", for me, is pure nonsense.

And with parents teaching, it's religion that it taught (due to its particularities, its principles, its ways etc.), but belief ultimately can't be taught.

Finnforest View Drop Down

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 12:25

Interesting!

...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"

BaldJean

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Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
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Points: 10387

Posted: March 17 2009 at 12:26

Sean Trane wrote:

Nope!! There is no written rules or laws to tell you what you have to think in atheism, since there is nothing to believe in.

BaldJean wrote:

Spammer21 wrote:

BaldJean wrote:

Everyone is born an atheist. You have to be taught to believe.

I sincerely doubt that, and there is no proof for it whatever. If everyone was born an atheist, why did religions come up in the first place? you won't find a single culture without religion

Sean, I have already stated that I am not a Christian. I advise you to read what I stated about my beliefs earlier in this post. the existence of a God the way I described "him" (I don't like the pronoun) is a logical necessity for me until someone comes up with an explanation where our consciousness comes from. I stated my opinion about that; once you believe in that you just have to think it through logically to inadvertently arrive at the conclusion that there is something we should call "God".
the explanation of God given by me is the central dogma of the religion Friede and I are High Priestesses of, by the way.
you have negative feelings towards a certain organized religion because of the way you were brought up. I have perfect understanding for that. but calling people "brainwashed" because they believe in God goes way too far

Edited by BaldJean - March 17 2009 at 14:48

A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 12:27

Ricochet wrote:

I incidentally think that non-belief could be a form of religion, dogma or even belief, mostly thinking about how Mircea Eliade settled this: there is the homo religiosus, who has his own spiritual universe, who supports the sacred and the transcendental, and the homo areligiosus, who denies and refusing the sacred, and thinks the world will be purified when the transcendental will be demoted as an illusion. BUT, here says Eliade, homo areligiosus's conduct derives from an initial homo religiosus condition, and can be itself considered a form of belief.

Hey, who are you calling a homo? Sorry that was bad, couldn't resist. Embarrassed

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

BaldJean

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Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
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Points: 10387

Posted: March 17 2009 at 12:32

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

Nope!! There is no written rules or laws to tell you what you have to think in atheism, since there is nothing to believe in.

Are you sure???????

Who We Are

We Are Not

The appearance of “ghosts” or other spirits of the dead.
Reincarnation of human “souls.”
The denial of established historical events, such as the Nazi mass murder of Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, and atheists during World War II.
Astrology of any origin.

http://www.atheistalliance.org/aai/index.php

This looks as the seven Commandments and the 4 capital sins of Atheism, written by an organization who is douing Atheist evangelism.

Iván

I especially love nr. 7 of "Who We Are"; it is so self-contradictory

A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 12:53

Yes jean, it's funny to read how this people who are sworn enemies odf religion say they work toward fostering cooperative diversity

This one is better, ths Atheist Organization say they don't believe in Commandmente and call them suggestions (in small font

THE
TEN COMMANDMENTS
(OF THE ETHICAL ATHEIST)

NOTE: Freethought and tolerance obviously prohibit these from being "commandments"! Just consider them "suggestions".

1. Thou SHALT NOT believe all thou art told.

2. Thou SHALT seek knowledge and truth constantly.

3. Thou SHALT educate thy fellow man in the Laws of Science.

4. Thou SHALT NOT forget the atrocities committed in the name of god.

5. Thou SHALT leave valuable contributions for future generations.

6. Thou SHALT live in peace with thy fellow man.

7. Thou SHALT live this one life thou hast to its fullest.

8. Thou SHALT follow a Personal Code of Ethics.

9. Thou SHALT maintain a strict separation between Church and State.

10. Thou SHALT support those who follow these commandments.

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/ten_commandments.html

Who will dare to say they donm't have beliefs, hey they have formal Commandments.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 17 2009 at 13:08

Ricochet

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 13:05

Slartibartfast wrote:

Hey, who are you calling a homo? Sorry that was bad, couldn't resist. Embarrassed

We're all homo sapiens sapiens sapiens sapiens, aren't we? Ermm

Dean

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 13:41

^ Technically we are homo sapiens sapiens - the extra two sapiens are superfluous

What?

The T

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 13:42

There are people wanting to join factions everywhere.. So there ARE atheist organizations....

Unlike Christianism or any other religion, though, most atheists don't belong to any group and most are 100% independent. I have never even known of the existence of those bullsh*t atheist organizations.

Christians are told what to believe and follow by churches and priests and books... these atheists you show us seem to be that way, too. Most of us, though, need none to tell us anything. We have our ideas (o lack thereof) from our pure intellectual analysis...

No "commandments" for us... really... if we have to obey a set of rules, we most likely will follow the rule of law.... of secular law... no ridiculous set of rules that state the obvious... (including this ludicrous "atheist ten commandments")

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 13:51

I don't know Iván, you seem to have a lot of readily available links to atheist resources, are you sure you aren't a closet atheist? LOL

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Ricochet

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Posted: March 17 2009 at 13:53

Dean wrote:

^ Technically we are homo sapiens sapiens - the extra two sapiens are superfluous

I know. It was part of a pun. Wink