Atheist bus campaign - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

KoS

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 16310

Posted: March 13 2009 at 14:47

Equating atheism with racism. Nice.

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630

Posted: March 13 2009 at 14:49

KoS wrote:

Equating atheism with racism. Nice.

racetheism? Tongue

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630

Posted: March 13 2009 at 15:03

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Sorry Stoney, but respectfully will disagree with each and every one of your statements:
Agree to disagree. Actually I think Stonebeard is making a lot of sense.

[QUOTE=stonebeard]

Perhaps in a society where all opinions on faith were equal, but atheism is so completely and clearly misunderstood and feared that this calm exposure is quite reasonable.

Please Stoney, we've done polls here and the majority claim to be atheist. With all due respect he was talking about society rather than the prog archives society.

People will always misunderstand religious (belñief or disbelief) concepts, despite only 2% of the priests accused of pedophilia are guilty, now Priest is synonymous of rapist for most, even in CSI and Law & Order make jokes. Priest is not synonymous for rapist, but the shielding or sweeping under the rug of the 2% or so of rapists and pedophiles is disturbing. The Catholic faith is huge on this planet. 2% is no small matter and reflects a huge number of lives messed up.

But atheists have made the greatest conquest, in USA,. a country where 95% of the people claim to have religious beliefs, religion has been banned from schools, what else do you want? To make religion illegal? Speaking as someone who grew up in the us and went to a good public school. the notion that religion has been banned from public schools is ridiculous. It was never banned, forcing kids to pray in public schools was banned. What we strive for is for atheism and agnosticism to be treated with the same respect as those who hold strong religious beliefs would like theirs to be held to. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. It tends to break down when the philosophy degenerates into do unto others before they can do it unto you, or the people who don't believe like me are evil and they must be destroyed. This attitude has been prevalent amongst the conservative Christians in this country for a while.

Edited by Slartibartfast - March 13 2009 at 15:09

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557

Posted: March 13 2009 at 15:11

KoS wrote:

Equating atheism with racism. Nice.

I'm not equating racism with atheism, that would be stupid,. yYou are manipulating what I said or simply you are not able to understand it, so i will go step by step:

There is a position of Stmney who says that no matter what an advice says, the driver must take the bus and drive it, as simple as that.

Stonebeard wrote:

2) Given that buses allow all sorts of advertisements, the drivers of such buses cannot pick and choose when to drive and not drive because they don't like the message. How much chaos that would cause!

Thios means: No matter what the advice says the driver can't pick up what message to accept or there will be chaos.
And what if a racist bus that message? Will the driver be allowed not to reject that bus?
According to Stoeneys argument, doesn't matter, the driver must drive doesn't matter what the sign says.

We are all against racism, so everybody here will congratulate the driver for not doing his job, because we agree with his conscience.

Many people here don't believe in God, so we don't accept that this same man has religiious beliefs and the same conscience, so he's not allowed to decide if he drives or not, because we believe the massage is OK, doesn't matter his personal beliefs.

The case is exactly the same, not saying that atheism ie equal to racism, but if a person is allowed to stand for his anti-racist beliefs, he must be also allowed to stand for his religious beliefs.

Saying that he can protest for what we disgree with but not against what we agee with, is hypocrisy.

So please stop playing the victim and manipulating what i say.

Iván.

BaldFriede View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10266

Posted: March 13 2009 at 15:29

I actually believe that anyone who is an atheist and lives in the USA lives in the wrong country, since even the dollar bill has "In God We Trust" printed on it.

BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557

Posted: March 13 2009 at 15:32

Slartibartfast wrote:

With all due respect he was talking about society rather than the prog archives society.

Of ciourse, this is only an example, but I dobn't see any discrimination of Atheists at all.

Priest is not synonymous for rapist, but the shielding or sweeping under the rug of the 2% or so of rapists and pedophiles is disturbing. The Catholic faith is huge on this planet. 2% is no small matter and reflects a huge number of lives messed up.

Again you should check what I say...It's not 2% of the total number priests that's found guilty, that would be huge, only 2% of the number of priests accused of rape are found guilty.

If I'm not wrong, there has been only 4,392 priests accused of rape since the 60's, from this 4,392 priests, less than 2% were found guilty, this means 80 in 4 decades, not significative. Most of them in USA where people sue for money, where parents let their kids sleep in the bed of Michael Jackson praying that he molests the kid, so they can get a couple million bucks.

This 4392 priests represent more or less the 2.5% of he total number of priests, only 2% of this 4396 have been found guilty, this means that only 0.05% of the actual number of priests have been found guilty,...But, since the statistics come from the 60's, you have to add all the priests that have died since the 60's, that would easilly reduce the percentage to 0.025% of the total numbre of priests found guilty.

But people generalize all priests, one case would be wrong, but the niumber is infimal if compared to the 80,000 cases of child sexual abuse reported only in USA per year, by parents, teachers and strangers , but a priest accused of raping sells, if he's declared innocent, the papers don't care to clean their names.

Speaking as someone who grew up in the us and went to a good public school. the notion that religion has been banned from public schools is ridiculous. It was never banned, forcing kids to pray in public schools was banned. What we strive for is for atheism and agnosticism to be treated with the same respect as those who hold strong religious beliefs would like theirs to be held to. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. It tends to break down when the philosophy degenerates into do unto others before they can do it unto you, or the people who don't believe like me are evil and they must be destroyed. This attitude has been prevalent amongst the conservative Christians in this country for a while.

USA Constitution says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise

Praying is the central expression of religious excercize, if you ban this, you ban religion, as simple as that.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 13 2009 at 16:03

stonebeard View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057

Posted: March 13 2009 at 17:27

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Sorry Stoney, but respectfully will disagree with each and every one of your statements:

stonebeard wrote:

Perhaps in a society where all opinions on faith were equal, but atheism is so completely and clearly misunderstood and feared that this calm exposure is quite reasonable.

Please Stoney, we've dobne polls here and the majority claim to be atheist.

Secularism has made advances, and rightly so; it is the core tenet or one of the core tenets of Western Civilization. Atheism is different, and is met with hostility by probably 80% of all religious people (probably a bit off). And a recent study came out saying that Agnostics/Atheists make up about 15% of the US population, and trust me they're only now getting any sort of voice whatsoever. When it is still sure political suicide for a politician to come out as not just an atheist but only a non-Christian, you know there is much ignorance and fear of a belief system which above all champions rationality.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

stonebeard wrote:

Although Peter did bring up a good point about maybe, possibly, however improbably the bus-goers may be targeted as riders on such an advertisement, I have a few things to say about that:

1) These buses tend to allow all sorts of messages, so long as they don't make unprovable claims (don't bring up the validity of the atheist claims--I don't care about discussing them), including religious ones. These messages are positive and should be encouraging to people.

Positiive attacking the believes of many people?

The argument to ban religion at schools in USA was that it was a desrespect for the rights of the atheists, this case is exactly the same, if somebody paid an advaice "God exists, be good" I assure you all Civil Right societies will jump against it.

There's no nice way of implying someone has wasted their life worshiping something that isn't there. No wonder it's a contentious issue. Just because it's attacking the beliefs of many people doesn't make it negative. I'll save a Nazi analogy for later.

If it is a private company (and I believe it must be because there would be a sh*tstorm if the government was using taxes to pay for any sort of faith message) then it owes no one any favor for the kind of message it carries, so long as it's not inciteful of violence or makes unprovable claims.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

stonebeard wrote:

2) Given that buses allow all sorts of advertisements, the drivers of such buses cannot pick and choose when to drive and not drive because they don't like the message. How much chaos that would cause!

That's absurd, you are underrating the bus drivers, because in your opinion because they are poor and have to work, they have to accept everything that is written in their buses.

What if a bus said "Latinos are taking our jobs, don't hire Latinos", or "Maybe Hitler was right, segregate the Jews"....Wouldn't they be entitled to protest and not drive? I wouldn't drive a bus with that advice.

Don't the Governments allow Conscience Objectors in the army? Is a bus driver too small to have conscience?

We need thinking people, people with criteria and strong values, but when it's against our convenience we juidge those who dare to have a strong believe.

You can choose which company to work for and which not to work for. Disregarding for a moment that it is PR suicide for a company to have the messages you said, an employee of the company can either stay with the company or not stay with the company based on his beliefs. He does not have the right to f**k up the daily bus system if he happens to not like whaling when there's an advertisement for a sushi bar.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

stonebeard wrote:

3) Advertisements of this positive and minimally inflammatory nature can never be held accountable as the cause of violence against them. It is always the terrorist who would try to harm those on the buses who is at fault.

Why minimally, because you say so? Fundamentalists are dangerous, from both sides, and are everywhere.

I say minimally because any rational person should not get up in arms over the phrase "There's probably no God, not stop worrying and enjoy your life." If you can't see how that's not a positive message, then you've inextricably linked a good life with the necessity of a belief in God.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

stonebeard wrote:

4) Not that is justifies the violence, but an attack on the buses would strengthen the atheist movement. It would be a terrible strategy to do violence to them if you want atheists to go away.

Great, it will stregth Atheist position...But the dead people???????? Who asked them to be martyrs of the Atheist cause???????

No one, but the fundamental point is if religions can advertise on buses, atheists cannot be culled into not advertising because of fear of illogical reprisal from the crazies.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

stonebeard wrote:

5) Atheism needs as a lot of exposure to not be held as a demonic ideology. Any place where atheism is advertised is likely to be vandalized by Christians and Muslims (congrats Jews, Buddhists, etc. for being fairly meek). Thus no place is "safe." It may well be a necessary risk for equality and the betterment of society.

False, Atheism is sold everywhere, religion is progressively banned...The atheist may not vandalize, but they sue everybody for millions to pay their anti-evangelism evangelist camopaign.

Iván

You're confusing atheism with secularism.

Edited by stonebeard - March 13 2009 at 17:28

My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!

The T

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493

Posted: March 13 2009 at 17:35

BaldFriede wrote:

I actually believe that anyone who is an atheist and lives in the USA lives in the wrong country, since even the dollar bill has "In God We Trust" printed on it.

That's partially true. What you're missing is the fact that the dollar bill ITSELF is the God in America... therefore, what you have is God saying "in me you trust".

As Stonebeard and Slartibartfast said, here it's political suicide to even recognize you're an atheist or a non-church-goer. The US will first have a gay president or a latino president before an atheist president (or at least one who SAYS he/she is one).

BaldFriede View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10266

Posted: March 13 2009 at 17:58

Stonebeard, you miss something important already. The message "There probably is no God, so stop worrying and enjoy your life" is misleading already; it implies that people who believe in God worry and don't enjoy their lives. Actually it is rather the opposite way: Anyone who has true faith in God will not worry. Worrying is a sign of doubt.

BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.

Spammer21

Forum Newbie

Joined: March 12 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 21

Posted: March 13 2009 at 18:01

BaldFriede wrote:

Stonebeard, you miss something important already. The message "There probably is no God, so stop worrying and enjoy your life" is misleading already; it implies that people who believe in God worry and don't enjoy their lives. Actually it is rather the opposite way: Anyone who has true faith in God will not worry. Worrying is a sign of doubt.

That's not true, I used to believe in God and I worried all the time. But also, it doesn't imply anything. This message is going out to everyone: towards people who haven't made up their mind, to atheists who are doubting their beliefs, or to anyone of any faith.

stonebeard View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057

Posted: March 13 2009 at 18:06

I doubt the humanity of someone who doesn't doubt. Tongue

My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!

Henry Plainview View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715

Posted: March 13 2009 at 18:11

Peter wrote:

What's next: pro choice and pro life propaganda on buses?

I'm pretty sure I remember seeing both on bus and subway ads here in the US.

I don't know what they're trying to accomplish by these ads, but I think that if you're afraid for your safety because of a pro/anti religion ad on your bus, there is something deeply wrong with our society.

if you own a sodastream i hate you

The T

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493

Posted: March 13 2009 at 18:23

Not accurate Baldfriede. It doesn't apply universally. When I "kind" of believed in God, I worried much more than today.

I still worry and question. But I don't think someone will be there to catch me in the end.

Many believers worry about hell/heaven, for example. Therefore, they worry.

Anyone who has true faith will not worry? Now the questiion is WHAT is true faith and WHAT GOD is the one.... And anyone who doesn't worry or has doubts is, in my mind, quite delussional, a wise sage, or very non-exemplary of this animal we call human being.

visitor2035 View Drop Down

Forum Groupie

Joined: December 26 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 61

Posted: March 13 2009 at 18:32

A coupla balls to boot into play here. First one.....why has no one ever seen this god person? burning bushes are not included, unless you believe god is/was a burning bush. Secondly only aetheists worry? isn't roman catholicism based on fear.....sin and you'll go to the burning fires of hell nonsense

Each to their own, but in my opinion only believers can be hypocrites, cos aesthiests don't have anything to follow or fairy tale books to believe in.

mrcozdude

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 25 2007
Location: Devon,UK.
Status: Offline
Points: 2078

Posted: March 13 2009 at 18:46

I'm sorry but just as there is no proof in science that certain religions don't exist is completely a different matter.Proof towards there being no god is far more of a break through then the possibility of science proving it does exist.We all know this won't be proven but as someone said belief is a completely different thing.

In all honesty and respect I find the religious don't find facts to deny there is no god but find excuses to combat atheist theory,which in my opinion is not valuable at all.

again it always come down to opinion unfortunately.But i find atheists far more open minded to others criticism compared to religious.

Leningrad

Forum Senior Member

Joined: August 15 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 7991

Posted: March 13 2009 at 18:47

I used to worry about everything. I mean, all the time, I was a complete chronic. And then I stopped believing in God.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557

Posted: March 13 2009 at 19:03

stonebeard wrote:

Secularism has made advances, and rightly so; it is the core tenet or one of the core tenets of Western Civilization. Atheism is different, and is met with hostility by probably 80% of all religious people (probably a bit off). And a recent study came out saying that Agnostics/Atheists make up about 15% of the US population, and trust me they're only now getting any sort of voice whatsoever. When it is still sure political suicide for a politician to come out as not just an atheist but only a non-Christian, you know there is much ignorance and fear of a belief system which above all champions rationality.

That's normal and happens everywhere:

In Perú a non Catholic hardly be elected.

In Iran hardly a non Moslem will be elected

In the former Soviet Union a non Atheist would had been sent to Siberia and in most of the communist countries they can expect problems.

Now, you are comparing Christians weith Nazis

BTW: There's no way you can imply to a religious person that there may not be God, because we know in advance there are no proves of his existence, and we don't believe our live is wasted....And why in helñl do you want to convince people? Isn't that evangelism of Atheism?

If it is a private company (and I believe it must be because there would be a sh*tstorm if the government was using taxes to pay for any sort of faith message) then it owes no one any favor for the kind of message it carries, so long as it's not inciteful of violence or makes unprovable claims.

So if a Nazi or anti Latino or anti Black message is ccarried, the bus driver isn't allowed to protest not driving?

Tell to a 60 years old guy he can choose where to work , that canm be only said by a person in his 20's or less, and there are work rights, a worker can protest against abusive or what he considers uinmoral conditions or being forced to carry a message in which he doesn't believe.

You are sitting in the rights of the bus driver because of your comfort.

There's a universal right to strike, and nobody can attempt against it.

Do whatever you want...God probably doesn't exist....How is that positive? And even if it's positive for you, why it has to be positive for me?

I believe I'm a moral person inmdependently of my believes, because that's how i was raised, but telling people do what you want is a bit dangerous.

No one, but the fundamental point is if religions can advertise on buses, atheists cannot be culled into not advertising because of fear of illogical reprisal from the crazies.

I'm not a hypocryte, I said multiple times that Religion is for the personal life, Church and religious schools, not for public advices, that wouldd be propaganda.

[ You're confusing atheism with secularism.

Oh please, I¡'m secular, but not atheist. I know well the difference

Iván

Henry Plainview View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715

Posted: March 13 2009 at 19:05

visitor2035 wrote:

Each to their own, but in my opinion only believers can be hypocrites, cos aesthiests don't have anything to follow or fairy tale books to believe in.

That is a very poor opinion, in my opinion. If only I could find a belief system that only had honest adherents...

if you own a sodastream i hate you

Leningrad

Forum Senior Member

Joined: August 15 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 7991

Posted: March 13 2009 at 19:13

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

If it is a private company (and I believe it must be because there would be a sh*tstorm if the government was using taxes to pay for any sort of faith message) then it owes no one any favor for the kind of message it carries, so long as it's not inciteful of violence or makes unprovable claims.

So if a Nazi or anti Latino or anti Black message is ccarried, the bus driver isn't allowed to protest not driving?

There's a difference between religious message and hate crime.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Do whatever you want...God probably doesn't exist....How is that positive? And even if it's positive for you, why it has to be positive for me?

I believe I'm a moral person inmdependently of my believes, because that's how i was raised, but telling people do what you want is a bit dangerous.

'God probably doesn't exist' isn't telling you "God is dead, if you are Christian you are stupid", it's a "Stop worrying about an omnipresent deity who in all likelihood doesn't exist".

'Do whatever you want', likewise, isn't presented in an infernal, anarchic bacchanal sense, it's meant in the sense that John Stuart Mill presents in On Liberty in that you may indulge in whatever you choose so long as you do not negatively affect others.

Edited by Leningrad - March 13 2009 at 19:13

OzzProg

Forum Senior Member

Joined: January 02 2008
Location: Quebec
Status: Offline
Points: 540

Posted: March 13 2009 at 19:32

These threads give me a headache; the endless mass of quoting, and all the "no I didn't mean it like that" is too much to handle.

It is useless to argue with someone's opinion, you're not going to change their mind. Religious debates usually end up with no winners, and a bunch of frustrated people with carpal tunnel in their wrists.

and to sum everything up: VIVE LE QUEBEC LIBRE!

Soundcloud